Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[Conan71]

OKC is about an hour from the Sapulpa exit, add another 10 minutes to downtown OKC, plus having the freedom of your own vehicle to venture outside Bricktown to mid-town, etc.  Personally, I might do it once just for the nostalgia of a train ride as it's really not practical for anything MC or I would be doing in the OKC area.

[Weatherdemon]

If I'm on 44 heading to Sapulpa with the family, would I stop there and do the whole train thing or would I pay the turnpike authority for a 75 - 85 mph nonstop to OKC?

How is this supposed to succeed?

75-85 MPH non-stop on the Turner?

I've never done that in 25 years of driving to OKC.

A 30 minute drive to Sapulpa to spend $250 after taxes and fees for my family to take a 3 hour train ride to Midwest to rent a car/spend another $80 for round trip cab fair, to go to the City for just over 2 hours before leaving to take the rental back and riding 3 hours back to Sapulpa on the train then driving 30 minutes home.

That's at least $350 in travel costs and 7 hours of travel for only 2 full hours in a non-destination city 2 hours away by car and $70 in gas.

I'm sorry but I have zero interest in that.

I would just as soon drive the +/-2 hours on the always under construction turnpike to OKC, do my business as long I want to, then drive home for a tank of gas and tolls.

[Red Arrow]

That's at least $350 in travel costs and 7 hours of travel for only 2 full hours in a non-destination city 2 hours away by car and $70 in gas.

What are you driving?  That sounds like 10 MPG.

[swake]

75-85 MPH non-stop on the Turner?

I've never done that in 25 years of driving to OKC.

The speed limit on the turnpike is 75 and you can easily go 5-10 mph over that with no problem. It's 88 miles and I can usually do that in just over an hour for about $10 in gas.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

In the mid 90's, I dated someone in Edmond, and I would get off work at 6PM and meet her for drinks in just over two hours, or the opposite, she could leave there at 5PM and be at my place shortly after I got off work. Like I said the train is a neat idea, but just not practical. More frequent trips both ways would work depending on how much freight is moved back and forth along that route. As noted, where the line goes into MWC just two miles away is the Amtrak Station, so it could possibly work, but how to get the price down? ***cough, cough, subsidies, cough, cough***

[AquaMan]

This is something i spent some time researching. The figures you guys are using aren't accurate from my experience. Weatherdemon is way off.  Yes, if you're under 45yrs old, drive 85mph or better and cut in front of the lines from (constant) narrowed down turnpike for construction repairs, tailgate because you're on a mission and don't stop to use the restroom, and don't get a ticket for speeding, then get free parking at your destination....yes its possible to do the 95 miles in 1:15 so that you can slow down in OKC traffic that is heading to the same football game or arena event you are. At 3.50 gal gas, $10 is 2.5 gals or about 40mpg. Not happening for most folks. AND if you slow down and look around, most of those cars are one or two passengers. A lot of waste to be have the freedom to drive around a metro most are not familiar with.

Also bear in mind that insurance companies are offering discounts if you use tracking devices that measure your speed, distance and driving habits. Exceed 80mph and you get dinged. It isn't a pilot program. Its the future of insurance coverage.

Mostly, you guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. This route isn't the solution. Its an invitation, a pr route, a chance to discuss alternate ways of visiting our state by a huge population that isn't in the same place you are with careers, family, cars etc.

When the holiday is over I'll share my figures and you can pick at them.

[Conan71]

This is something i spent some time researching. The figures you guys are using aren't accurate from my experience. Weatherdemon is way off.  Yes, if you're under 45yrs old, drive 85mph or better and cut in front of the lines from (constant) narrowed down turnpike for construction repairs, tailgate because you're on a mission and don't stop to use the restroom, and don't get a ticket for speeding, then get free parking at your destination....yes its possible to do the 95 miles in 1:15 so that you can slow down in OKC traffic that is heading to the same football game or arena event you are. At 3.50 gal gas, $10 is 2.5 gals or about 40mpg. Not happening for most folks. AND if you slow down and look around, most of those cars are one or two passengers. A lot of waste to be have the freedom to drive around a metro most are not familiar with.

Also bear in mind that insurance companies are offering discounts if you use tracking devices that measure your speed, distance and driving habits. Exceed 80mph and you get dinged. It isn't a pilot program. Its the future of insurance coverage.

Mostly, you guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. This route isn't the solution. Its an invitation, a pr route, a chance to discuss alternate ways of visiting our state by a huge population that isn't in the same place you are with careers, family, cars etc.

When the holiday is over I'll share my figures and you can pick at them.

Gas is currently $2.89'ish, I average 26 to 28 mpg with my Sonata on the highway, that's $10.55 in gas one way and averaging 79/80 mph, that's 72 minutes.  And no, that's not driving like a jackass at 80.

Again, it's got great nostalgia factor, but for our independent auto-centric mind-set out here in the prairie land, it's simply not a "practical" mode of transportation for most of us.

[Red Arrow]

At $3.50 gal gas, $10 is 2.5 2.86 gals or about 40 35 mpg. Not happening for most folks.

However, as Conan noted, gas is a bit less than $3.50/gal at the moment.

When the holiday is over I'll share my figures and you can pick at them.

Why wait?  Merry Christmas, or whatever you celebrate.   

[SXSW]

I timed this drive recently from downtown Tulsa to downtown OKC.  Aside from minor construction delays outside downtown Tulsa and on the Turnpike, and slower traffic on I-235 in OKC, the whole trip took 1 hour 40 minutes non-stop.  

I think for any kind of train to work it would have to go from downtown to downtown, be high speed and be a part of a larger network (Chicago-St Louis-Tulsa-OKC-Dallas-Houston).  Otherwise the distance is too short and the drive is really easy (heavy traffic but not slow).

[Weatherdemon]

My amount on gas was high for the point.

If there is curiosity I fill up with 91 octane real gas as that is what my car is tuned for. I get 21-22MPG on the highway and average about 68MPH on the Turner when driving 83-84 in the 75 when people are kind enough to let you by and 50-60 in the construction zones.
So if I only spend $35-$40 in gas, it just makes the train that much less of an option if I'm basing it strictly on finances.

I love the idea. I want train service. My only issues with this pilot are the pick up and drop off points and the limited time you have in OKC with it.

I certainly hope enough interest is generated with this to get something permanent in place!!!

[AquaMan]

Note: I have nothing to do with this operation in any way. I merely remember rail travel from Tulsa as a youth to Kansas City and marvel at how we let it get away in favor of personal cars.

Why use the lower cost for gasl.? You think it will last? I use a higher figure that is less than what the high point has been, but is more meaningful for analysis. Then I wonder why no one includes toll fees? Or destination parking fees? Or the cost of insurance (small for sure but a cost nonetheless). Same thing for wear/tear on your vehicle and the depreciation of value due to mileage. Maintenance too.

Maybe its just the accounting classes from college but it seems to me that if you are a regular traveller, these costs are real. If you simply are going to visit family occasionally, not so much.

And what do you value the cost of your personal time as a driver negotiating a high speed, two lane road clogged with idiot drivers, lots of semi's and potential speeding tickets. I have never been on the turnpike when they weren't working on it somewhere.

There are more invisible costs but lets just stop here because the real complaint most of you have is that it is not convenient being in Sapulpa and arriving in MIdwest City. Even though they include a coach bus for connections to destinations, it is still slow and expensive. I agree. Shall we wait for Tulsa to build (or retake) a Union Depot? Won't happen. Little support here. Shall we price it to compete with drivers who likely wouldn't take it under most circumstances anyway? Not a good business plan. Shall we wait till trips to KC and Dallas are available? How long we been waiting already?

So, you work with what you have and hope to generate some enthusiasm, some problem solving and catch up with metros that have already faced, and overcome, these complaints. You also realize that the future is not going to look like this frozen moment in time. Your kids will grow up. Your patience will wear thin for drunks and tailgaters. More importantly, trends for the next generation show less commitment to personal transportation (other than bikes) and more to mass. The huge baby boom group is giving up cars in favor of mass transit.  They both want to enjoy the trip, get a little business done, read, perhaps legally consume some fine intoxicants and then take in a concert or a museum without hassle.

We can sit by and complain about how it isn't what we want or we could embrace the baby steps as a start. Oh, yeah, Joyeaux Noel to you all and Bonne' Annee'!!

[Red Arrow]

Note: I have nothing to do with this operation in any way. I merely remember rail travel from Tulsa as a youth to Kansas City and marvel at how we let it get away in favor of personal cars.

Why use the lower cost for gasl.? You think it will last? I use a higher figure that is less than what the high point has been, but is more meaningful for analysis. Then I wonder why no one includes toll fees? Or destination parking fees? Or the cost of insurance (small for sure but a cost nonetheless). Same thing for wear/tear on your vehicle and the depreciation of value due to mileage. Maintenance too.

Maybe its just the accounting classes from college but it seems to me that if you are a regular traveller, these costs are real. If you simply are going to visit family occasionally, not so much.

You make some reasonable points, however....
The future price of gas is more valid for a long term analysis than whether I want to go in the near future.  Tolls should certainly be considered.  I too wondered why they were neglected.  I guess everyone has a Pike Pass and tolls become less visible, like income tax withholding.  Parking fees: Probably depends on where you are going in OKC.  If you drive enough to raise your insurance rates then you should probably include them.  Otherwise, driving more miles just lowers your insurance rate per mile. (Kind of like my airplane insurance and other "fixed" costs.  It costs $X.xx per year for the privilege of having it available.  If I fly, the hourly equivalent drops.)  Wear/tear and maintenance are pretty much the same thing but most of use allow some of the newness of a car to fade. I am thinking of minor paint chips,  seat belts that don't look brand new, radio knobs/buttons with faded icons, etc.  That is part of depreciated value.  Engine, tranny, running gear etc are certainly to be addressed.  I don't plan to sell my car so the depreciated value on a car with 177000. miles is probably negligible.  A coach connection is provided but does the $70/per person include the coach ride from MWC to OKC and return to the train?  I missed it if "they" said the price of the coach is included.

And what do you value the cost of your personal time as a driver negotiating a high speed, two lane road clogged with idiot drivers, lots of semi's and potential speeding tickets. I have never been on the turnpike when they weren't working on it somewhere.

I don't work while on public transit due to childhood tendencies toward motion sickness.  I hardly even read the magazines on airlines.  If the train is not competitive time-wise, my personal time is better served by driving.  I thought the Tuner Turnpike is a 4 lane (or more) divided highway.  I am very unlikely to travel on two lane route 66 (or whatever it is now).  High speed?  I got to drive the Autobahn in Germany a bit.  That was high speed to me (I got to go 200 Km/hr, 125 mph).  The German drivers are a LOT more disciplined than Americans though. In 1995 there seemed to be two main groups, the 80 mph crowd and the 100 mph crowd. There was always someone faster too.  Semi trucks are driven by professional drivers.  Mostly they are not a big problem if you pay attention.  I don't worry about speeding tickets since I am usually pretty close to the speed limit.  (I also carefully come to a full stop at stop signs while looking in my mirrors.)  I do admit to not always using my turn signal if no one is close enough to need to know what I am doing next. It must be the BMW influence.   I haven't been on the Turner Turnpike for a few years so I'll bow to others' experience regarding construction delays.

There are more invisible costs but lets just stop here because the real complaint most of you have is that it is not convenient being in Sapulpa and arriving in MIdwest City. Even though they include a coach bus for connections to destinations, it is still slow and expensive. I agree. Shall we wait for Tulsa to build (or retake) a Union Depot? Won't happen. Little support here. Shall we price it to compete with drivers who likely wouldn't take it under most circumstances anyway? Not a good business plan. Shall we wait till trips to KC and Dallas are available? How long we been waiting already?

So, you work with what you have and hope to generate some enthusiasm, some problem solving and catch up with metros that have already faced, and overcome, these complaints. You also realize that the future is not going to look like this frozen moment in time. Your kids will grow up. Your patience will wear thin for drunks and tailgaters. More importantly, trends for the next generation show less commitment to personal transportation (other than bikes) and more to mass. The huge baby boom group is giving up cars in favor of mass transit.  They both want to enjoy the trip, get a little business done, read, perhaps legally consume some fine intoxicants and then take in a concert or a museum without hassle.

We can sit by and complain about how it isn't what we want or we could embrace the baby steps as a start. Oh, yeah, Joyeaux Noel to you all and Bonne' Annee'!!

If the plan is to see if there is sufficient interest in an excursion train, then the Sapulpa/MWC can maybe work.   The cost and time is less relevant for that mode than for a regular transit mode.  I am concerned that this plan is to find the interest in rail for regular travelers.  If it fails because it doesn't serve regular travelers, then we may be worse off for future rail transit by means of a faulty test program.  

Frohliche Weihnachten (I don't know how to get the two dots over the "o".)
Feliz Navidad

[swake]

My amount on gas was high for the point.

If there is curiosity I fill up with 91 octane real gas as that is what my car is tuned for. I get 21-22MPG on the highway and average about 68MPH on the Turner when driving 83-84 in the 75 when people are kind enough to let you by and 50-60 in the construction zones.
So if I only spend $35-$40 in gas, it just makes the train that much less of an option if I'm basing it strictly on finances.

I love the idea. I want train service. My only issues with this pilot are the pick up and drop off points and the limited time you have in OKC with it.

I certainly hope enough interest is generated with this to get something permanent in place!!!

My Infinity gets 27 mph on the highway, I use 91 octane currently at $2.98 a gallon, the turnpike is 88 miles and outside of construction I drive 83 MPH on it. That's a shade over an hour for $9, plus toll, which I have no idea of the cost because of my Pikepass that I use basically daily.

[AquaMan]

So you're a criminal with a nice car who lives closer to the turnpike than I do! The speed limit is 75, it is 95 miles from my home near downtown and the toll is $4 each way. My Edge gets about 25mpg hwy at 75mph on low octane. Respectfully, you are not in the demographic for rail travel. At least not the rail travel being offered now in Sapulpa.

By staying under 80mph, my insurance company offers me up to a 15% discount on my premium. They know risk increases with speed. I have never been able to make that drive from one gate to the other in under 1hr 15 minutes (average 76mph with slowdowns and stops) and I've been making it since 1969. My son lives in Moore and drives like you. From my house, he can't make it there in less than 1hr 40 min. Of course I have to stop to pay the toll which adds a bit.

This current offering doesn't compare to regular turnpike driving. To me, that isn't the correct comparison to make. It is more suitable for special interest groups, daytrips, innovators, risk aversion personalities (think coach Madden), special events and fun seekers. The trip itself is the destination. It isn't everyday travel stuff. Considering it doesn't have the subsidies available for highways and turnpikes, I doubt it will be profitable. Hopefully it will stimulate some interest.

[Red Arrow]

By staying under 80mph, my insurance company offers me up to a 15% discount on my premium.

Too much "1984"ish for me.  Even though I am not doing anything wrong, it's not really anyone's business where I am going or what I am doing and how fast I may have gone for a short period of time.  I also don't want 3rd parties putting anything on my vehicle.