Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[Townsend]

Passenger Rail Update: ODOT Transfers Track to Private Firm

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/passenger-rail-update-odot-transfers-track-private-firm

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Oklahoma Department of Transportation has completed the $75 million sale of nearly 100 miles of railroad track to Stillwater Central Railroad LLC.

ODOT and railroad officials signed the sale agreement Monday afternoon in Oklahoma City. Plans for the rail line include passenger service and hauling of freight, including crude oil.

Railroad officials said they plan to begin a trial run of passenger service in early to mid-2015. The track, which is 97. 5 miles, is from Sapulpa to Midwest City and is known as the Sooner Sub.

ODOT director Mike Patterson said the $75 million will go into a fund that is used to improve safety at railroad crossings in the state.

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

The plan to open passenger rail service from Tulsa to Oklahoma City in May has been sidetracked.

But train fans don't need to worry. The service is still coming — just on down the line, rail officials said.

The problem, according to Iowa Pacific Holdings president and CEO Ed Ellis, is that the idea got too popular and was received too well.

Ellis said Tulsa officials supported finding a way to connect all the way to downtown Tulsa. Oklahoma City leaders, meanwhile, have already taken measures to outfit a downtown station — something Tulsa officials have discussed but taken no action on.

Those responses from public officials upped the ante for Ellis and his company, he said.

As planned, the passenger rail service was slated to run from Midwest City to Sapulpa with an expense for shuttle service to connect passengers on each end of the line to each metro's downtown.

Watco Cos. bought the line from the state last year for $75 million but doesn't own the lines that connect Sapulpa to downtown Tulsa or Midwest City to downtown Oklahoma City.

The companies have pledged to provide twice-daily, round-trip service. Ellis said all announced plans, including tickets starting in the $20-$30 range, food and drink service, wireless Internet and arrival within three hours, are all still planned.

Ellis said he now hopes that when passenger rail does eventually connect that it will not only go from downtown to downtown, but he also hopes to work out a deal to connect the Eastern Flyer to the Heartland Flyer.

"We want to get it right and that's the main thing we're concerned with," Ellis said.

The Heartland Flyer runs from Oklahoma City to Fort Worth, Texas, and is operated by Amtrak.

Connecting all those lines requires special agreements with various companies and entities who own the connecting lines.

The other issue for the Eastern Flyer delay has been a similar situation in Indiana, Ellis said.

Iowa Pacific Holdings is involved with a newly purchased line in Indiana that they are hoping to develop for more passenger rail service — much like what happened here.
Ellis said he made the decision to pull the staffing resources he had working to bring passenger rail service to Oklahoma in order to focus on Indiana.

"Indiana is moving along," Ellis said. "We are trying to get that one done before we do anything else. Indiana we hope to get done this summer."

While the Indiana project develops, Ellis said he hopes agreements will be put in place for a full-fledged, downtown-to-downtown passenger service in Oklahoma — skipping the phase that included shuttle service altogether.

But he has no new deadline for when he hopes the service will leave the station.

"I don't want to get out ahead of the two cities," Ellis said. "They asked us to do some specific stuff, and we're working on it. ... The train is coming, and we're working with Tulsa and Oklahoma City to make sure that we do it right."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/passenger-rail-not-coming-to-tulsa-as-soon-as-hoped/article_acf8b9f8-1724-5d3b-8f99-d438ad8fca74.html

Frustrating to hear that there's no new target date. That should always be a warning.  But probably good to hear they're trying to hold off until they can get downtown to downtown service.  I had visions of a Sapulpa to Midwest City line failing followed by people saying "See, passenger trains between Tulsa and OKC are nonviable."

[AquaMan]

People will still say that. In fact someone recently told me it would fail because of the 5 hour trip time. Don't know where he got that.

Note that OKC immediately made downtown OKC connections available. Tulsa has merely shown "support" for a downtown destination. Oh, well. That's at least better than no support.

[SXSW]

People will still say that. In fact someone recently told me it would fail because of the 5 hour trip time. Don't know where he got that.

Note that OKC immediately made downtown OKC connections available. Tulsa has merely shown "support" for a downtown destination. Oh, well. That's at least better than no support.

I suggest letting your councilors know you want the city to get involved in making Union Depot the destination for trains to/from OKC.  The station and OK Jazz HOF can co-exist there.  The location, once thought to be a liability, is now pretty perfect for connections to CBD office towers, Brady across the bridge, down 1st to Blue Dome and a few blocks from the BOK/convention center.

If you haven't been to Denver's Union Station since they renovated and reopened it last year it is really fantastic.  It has several shops and restaurants, and a hotel.  And unlike KC or St Louis it's still a working train station and the hub for Amtrak and the light/commuter rail network, plus the main bus terminal underground.  It's really changed that whole area where it's located.

[TheArtist]

I suggest letting your councilors know you want the city to get involved in making Union Depot the destination for trains to/from OKC.  The station and OK Jazz HOF can co-exist there.  The location, once thought to be a liability, is now pretty perfect for connections to CBD office towers, Brady across the bridge, down 1st to Blue Dome and a few blocks from the BOK/convention center.

If you haven't been to Denver's Union Station since they renovated and reopened it last year it is really fantastic.  It has several shops and restaurants, and a hotel.  And unlike KC or St Louis it's still a working train station and the hub for Amtrak and the light/commuter rail network, plus the main bus terminal underground.  It's really changed that whole area where it's located.

Denver also has zoning around its station to help make all that work.  The new comprehensive plan will prohibit that in downtown Tulsa. Which is why I am calling for people to please write in to strike the language not allowing overlays in downtown.  I really think we should have that tool available to us if we find that we may want it in the future.

"Section 20.010

20.010-A Purpose and Intent

As the name implies, overlay districts "over-lay" applicable base zoning district classifica- tions to alter some or all of the base zoning district regulations that apply to particular sites. Overlay zoning districts work to modify or supplement the regulations imposed by base zoning district when necessary to address special situations or accomplish specific city goals. Overlay zoning is intended to be used when the base zoning district applied to an area remains generally appropriate, but when an additional, modified or eliminated requirement could help implement the city's planning goals or address an area-specific planning, design or land use regulation issue.
"Purpose and Intended Use

1. PB overlays are intended to allow for adjustments in an area's underlying base zoning as a means of carrying out the policies of an adopted neighborhood or area plan. PB overlays may be used to relax or eliminate requirements that apply under base zon- ing or to impose requirements in addition to those of base zoning. PB overlays may be appropriate for one or more of the following purposes:
a. Protect unique development, building or land use patterns that are not adequately addressed by otherwise applicable zoning regulations; or
b. Promote reinvestment and redevelopment in areas where change is desirable and where existing zoning regulations hinder or fall short of achieving desired outcomes.
2. Without limiting the general purpose and intent of §20.040-B1, PB overlays may be used for the following express purposes:
a. Allow principal or accessory uses that are not allowed under base zoning; or
b. Establish reasonable, clear and objective site, building and design standards that
promote the general purpose established in §20.040-B1."

...Underlying Zoning
PB overlays may be approved in areas classified in any residential or nonresidential base zoning district, except the CB district. PB overlays may not be applied in combination with CB zoning.

Go here if you think we should be able to allow for "Overlays" in downtown in the future.   Really simple, just put in a couple sentences.  Please.

http://www.peakdemocracy.com/portals/121/Forum_355/Issue_2362  

[Conan71]

Do we know with all the freight traffic on the lines running past the Union Depot that it is really an option?

I'm pretty quick to blame this administration for anything which resembles a lack of vision.  There might be some things which are pretty far out of their control with the railroad that it will take more time to look into.

[cannon_fodder]

1) The Union Depot is under lease to the Jazz Hall for 99 years. If the Jazz Hall wanted to lease a portion of it for use as a railroad station again, there would be a good bit of issues to resolve to get that done. But it would be hard to see how the government could force a lease holder to do anything.

2) The Jazz Hall is an artifact of WilTell/Williams faltering and Vision2025 purchasing the building (with a leaseback provision to for the ground floor). The building was then leased to the Jazz Hall for 99 years by the purchaser. As it was a V2025 project, the purchaser was TULSA COUNTY. So write to your City Councilors all you want, but hope they work with the County Commissioners to get the job done (technically the Tulsa County Industrial Authority). The Jazz Depot could request subleasing a portion of the building to be used as a railroad depot, but the TCIA would have to give approval.

3) Much of the infrastructure for the building to serve as a railroad depo is gone. The bridge to what was the center of the track line is long gone. Even the stairwells down to the south side lines is gone. There is a school on the ground floor (making it difficult to invite the public into the building). The spur rails that passenger trains would pull onto to load passengers and allow other trains to pass as need be are defunct (some rails are still there, but they are unused and I believe no longer join the main lines). Adding said infrastructure back in to a historic building could present problems, particularly when also attempting to comply with ADA requirements for travel accommodations.

4) The line rights coming into downtown Tulsa are held by another railroad (BNSF holds the rights to most of the lines through downtown Tulsa). They are obligated, under certain conditions, to share/sell right of way. But it isn't as simple as "we have a depot, come on down trains!" 


My guess is a platform style depot would work the best. I'm not for or against the Depot idea, I jsut see too many obstacles. A platform is affordable, classic, and easily placed in many areas. How much rail frontage is there through downtown Tulsa?  Lots. But adding a rail spur so a passenger train could sit for a period of time could be expensive. I'm no expert on all of that, but I know the lines through downtown are heavily utilized.

What is Oklahoma City's depot for the Eastern Flyer?

OKC is miles ahead of Tulsa in planning for mass transit, particularly rail. But a lot of that came with significant public money (including Federal $). If they are utilizing Amtrak infrastructure, they have a much easier time than we do.

[Conan71]

If downtown Tulsa is not a possibility, there is a spot across from the newly re-habbed Crystal City shopping center which could possibly work.  There used to be a couple of garages or car lots adjacent to the tracks.  That might be enough space for a spur and boarding platform and people could park on the Crystal City property.

The only other issue I see is how do you move the engine from one end of the train from the other without a by-pass track or turntable?  I'm guessing you always have a primary engine pulling from the front instead of pushing from the rear for visibility and safety concerns.

[SXSW]

What is Oklahoma City's depot for the Eastern Flyer?

OKC is miles ahead of Tulsa in planning for mass transit, particularly rail. But a lot of that came with significant public money (including Federal $). If they are utilizing Amtrak infrastructure, they have a much easier time than we do.

Good question.  Looking at a map of the tracks in OKC it appears to be problematic to get a train from the Tulsa-bound tracks into Santa Fe Depot where Amtrak has a stop.  Union Station by I-40 looks to be a better location from that perspective but I don't know if the infrastructure is still in place there or not.  It may be a situation similar to Tulsa's Union Depot.

[DTowner]

In light of the Jazz Hall of Fame's perpetual financial crises and several near evictions, I suspect it would welcome the potential to sublet or be relieved of some of the space.  Similarly, I would think the county would be overjoyed at the possibility of a more stable tenant for a portion of the building.  Of course, it might be debatable whether a train station would be a more stable long-term tenant.

As for needed improvements/modifications, those are just the type of things that should be considered for inclusion in the next Vision package.

[Red Arrow]

The only other issue I see is how do you move the engine from one end of the train from the other without a by-pass track or turntable?  I'm guessing you always have a primary engine pulling from the front instead of pushing from the rear for visibility and safety concerns.

The New Mexico Rail Runner pulls in one direction and pushes in the other.

[LandArchPoke]

To me the highest/best use site for a train station downtown is the Storey Wrecker site, and a few surrounding properties. If a multi-modal complex was built here (I'm envisioning something like Denver's Union Station) that incorporates trains and buses it would help pull development further west from the Brady toward the BOK Center.

If you built something here you'd help drive up land values to the point that it would make sense for someone to acquire the prison and do some sort of PPP to rebuild the prison elsewhere in return for development rights to that land. Denver's Union Station was a huge PPP with Trammel Crow as the developer, and they've been slowly infilling all the adjacent land around that center. You could also sell the rights to redevelop the current bus terminal as well once the new multimodal center was complete.




The prison occupies about $50 million in land value - let that sink in for a few minutes. The homeless shelter and Salvation Army properties land values are close to $10 million together. Now imagine this area developed like this....




If I had a wish for a major downtown investment in Vision2025 II it would this. Take the money passed for a new Juvenile Justice Center and acquire enough land to build both. I'm not sure what a new prison would cost to build (I'm guessing in the neighborhood of $100-150 million). You have a private partner that would help fund the construction of the new prison and would get the $50 million in land value. Put $50 million in Vision funds for the prison (would equal $100 million) Form a TIF/BID district that would capture ad valorem taxes and sales taxes from the new infill development to cover any extra cost.

Put $75 million into acquiring land for the multimodal center and building platforms, a parking garage, and a "depot building". Set a plan for expanding regional rail connections to Grand Lake, Little Rock, Dallas, KC, etc. Set a plan to build commuter rail to B-ville, Muskogee, Stillwater, etc. Finally, set a plan for light rail/rapid transit in the immediate metro. Build the first phase in a way that you can slowly add on to the facility as other types of transportation is constructed.

You'd instantly cause land values to skyrocket in the Brady west of Boston. You'd also make the land west of the BOK very valuable as well for redevelopment, and you'd increase the development potential west of US 75/Owen Park area.

[TheArtist]

Yes, I don't think there is any real discussion to using the Union Depot.  Personally I would not like to use it for it is now too disconnected from any decent urban fabric.  First impression of Tulsa leaving the depot would be a large parking garage and the back alley like area of a bunch of other buildings and parking garages.  Pedestrian connectivity to other parts of downtown is important.  But there is talk about doing a train station downtown. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Similarly, I would think the county would be overjoyed at the possibility of a more stable tenant for a portion of the building.  Of course, it might be debatable whether a train station would be a more stable long-term tenant.

Nothing that has been in there since late 60's has been even close to as stable as when it was a train station the first time.  And even that was only about 35 years.  

Heartland Flyer has been going 16 years so far.  And it's on track owned by Warren Buffet.  Probably will continue for a while....

If there were decent facilities (parking for a car) or public transportation to get to the station, and a real connection to the Flyer, I would ride the thing at least a half dozen times a year just going to Ft Worth, and if they got the schedule right, would be on that sucker two or three times a week to OKC!! Nothing I would like better than to get on in downtown T, then get in a car at OKC station.  Perfection!!

Three hour trip T to OKC??  Great!!!  I could get tons of stuff done in that 'down time'.  Be almost like a real world oughta be....



Interesting how many people from Tulsa go down to OKC area a lot for work....Have known one in the past who commuted every day for about 6 years, up until about 18 months ago!  Yuck!  And found out after the May storm that there were at least two other Tulsan's living in one of my haunts that was destroyed - part and full time....go figure.  Says something about how OKC is encouraging technology more than T right now - at least for the last few years.  Where are all those engineering jobs again??

[DTowner]

Yes, I don't think there is any real discussion to using the Union Depot.  Personally I would not like to use it for it is now too disconnected from any decent urban fabric.  First impression of Tulsa leaving the depot would be a large parking garage and the back alley like area of a bunch of other buildings and parking garages.  Pedestrian connectivity to other parts of downtown is important.  But there is talk about doing a train station downtown. 

I agree the Williams/City Hall complex really isolates the old train depot.  However, I don't think a proposal to spend a lot of money to build a brand new train station will go over very well when we have an underutilized building with "Depot" in its name sitting on the tracks that could be put back in service for a much smaller investment.  It also has ample parking right outside its front door.  Rail service between Tulsa and OKC may or may not work out long-term - keeping our investment on a building to a minimum would be a much easier sale to voters.