Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[heironymouspasparagus]

When Cornett becomes Governor of Oklahoma City, the entire ODOT budget may be dedicated to OKC and nearby areas.....

We need to go ahead with the original plan and break northeast OK into another state.  Like CA is trying to do.

[Red Arrow]

At $100 million per mile, figure close to $1 billion dollars and about 8 years.

I think your price is a bit high for the OKC area. 
https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/oklahoma-city-streetcar-okc-street-car-oklahoma/

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I think your price is a bit high for the OKC area. 
https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/oklahoma-city-streetcar-okc-street-car-oklahoma/

I was looking at urban/inter city/commuter light rail, based on a glance of that map, not the street car portion.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

[Conan71]

I was looking at urban/inter city/commuter light rail, based on a glance of that map, not the street car portion.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

$100 Mil per mile?  Not questioning your sources or reasoning, but I'm in the wrong businesses apparently.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

$100 Mil per mile?  Not questioning your sources or reasoning, but I'm in the wrong businesses apparently.

Phoenix AZ 20 Miles $1.4 billion

https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/default/files/uploads/event-resources/rail_cafr_12.18.12final1.pdf

DART in Dallas 20 years $5 billion

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dart-has-spent-5-billion-on-light-rail-is-it-worth-it-8380338

Expansion in Portland Oregon for the Portland-Milwaukie Light Rail cost $1.5 billion for 7.3 miles, or $205 million per mile.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-21249-dr-know-light-rail-heavy-expenditures.html

[cannon_fodder]

$100 Mil per mile?  Not questioning your sources or reasoning, but I'm in the wrong businesses apparently.

Heck, it is $2,6000,000,000 per subway mile in NYC. In Europe (economically similar) the cost is $40 - 100mil a mile for light rail, and $200-400mil for a subway line in a mature city.

There is an entire cottage industry of studies trying to figure out why rail is so expensive in the US. Various reasons given, but they usually include:


Strong property rights in the US.
Poor mass transit (so if the rail doesn't go there, you might as well drive anyway).
The nature of the projects (new install, underground, do not disturb traffic, etc.).
Existing network built for freight.
Population density (drives up desirability, also drives up the cost if it wasn't put in place "back in the day").
Project management.
And for some locations - labor & regulation (from actual wages, to requiring a certain number of bodies).

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/11/why-doesnt-the-united-states-have-high-speed-bullet-trains-like-europe-and-asia/#7cf5f40c0804

[TheArtist]

Heck, it is $2,6000,000,000 per subway mile in NYC. In Europe (economically similar) the cost is $40 - 100mil a mile for light rail, and $200-400mil for a subway line in a mature city.

There is an entire cottage industry of studies trying to figure out why rail is so expensive in the US. Various reasons given, but they usually include:


Strong property rights in the US.
Poor mass transit (so if the rail doesn't go there, you might as well drive anyway).
The nature of the projects (new install, underground, do not disturb traffic, etc.).
Existing network built for freight.
Population density (drives up desirability, also drives up the cost if it wasn't put in place "back in the day").
Project management.
And for some locations - labor & regulation (from actual wages, to requiring a certain number of bodies).

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/11/why-doesnt-the-united-states-have-high-speed-bullet-trains-like-europe-and-asia/#7cf5f40c0804

When we had experts come to Tulsa about 10 years ago they said our city had the perfect conditions to begin working on rail.  They were like, "If I were to sit down and plot out where I wanted rail without knowing where your current rail lines were, turns out that I would place them right where they are!?" Downtown Tulsa to Downtown BA, to Jenks, etc.   They said now was the time to implement zoning to begin building transit friendly density and to buy up properties for Transit oriented development, rail stations, etc. for it was cheap to do so at this point.   And so on.  They were telling us that so many other cities had made this and that mistake and that we were in the incredibly enviable position to avoid those costly mistakes.

But of course, you know, we are not going to avoid them, we will run ourselves right smack dab into them and ask why.

[carltonplace]

When we had experts come to Tulsa about 10 years ago they said our city had the perfect conditions to begin working on rail.  They were like, "If I were to sit down and plot out where I wanted rail without knowing where your current rail lines were, turns out that I would place them right where they are!?" Downtown Tulsa to Downtown BA, to Jenks, etc.   They said now was the time to implement zoning to begin building transit friendly density and to buy up properties for Transit oriented development, rail stations, etc. for it was cheap to do so at this point.   And so on.  They were telling us that so many other cities had made this and that mistake and that we were in the incredibly enviable position to avoid those costly mistakes.

But of course, you know, we are not going to avoid them, we will run ourselves right smack dab into them and ask why.

We lost a lot of momentum during "the Dewey Years"

[joiei]

We lost a lot of momentum during "the Dewey Years"

yes

[SXSW]

When we had experts come to Tulsa about 10 years ago they said our city had the perfect conditions to begin working on rail.  They were like, "If I were to sit down and plot out where I wanted rail without knowing where your current rail lines were, turns out that I would place them right where they are!?" Downtown Tulsa to Downtown BA, to Jenks, etc.   They said now was the time to implement zoning to begin building transit friendly density and to buy up properties for Transit oriented development, rail stations, etc. for it was cheap to do so at this point.   And so on.  They were telling us that so many other cities had made this and that mistake and that we were in the incredibly enviable position to avoid those costly mistakes.

But of course, you know, we are not going to avoid them, we will run ourselves right smack dab into them and ask why.

You're right Tulsa is well-set up for a rail network to our commuter burbs with existing lines to BA, Jenks, Sand Springs and Owasso.  There is even an existing line to the airport which is usually a huge expense for cities.  The downtown-BA line not only connects two redeveloped urban centers of the 2nd and 4th largest cities in the state but also goes through midtown connecting Lortondale, Florence Park, Renaissance/11th St/TU and the Pearl.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

You're right Tulsa is well-set up for a rail network to our commuter burbs with existing lines to BA, Jenks, Sand Springs and Owasso.  There is even an existing line to the airport which is usually a huge expense for cities.  The downtown-BA line not only connects two redeveloped urban centers of the 2nd and 4th largest cities in the state but also goes through midtown connecting Lortondale, Florence Park, Renaissance/11th St/TU and the Pearl.

Yes there are existing rail lines that you mention, but as discussed before they are designed as freight rail lines not passenger rail with sidings designed to shunt passenger service off the line to let freight pass and vice-versa. The line that runs through Dawson on the way out to the airport is used as an acceleration zone for outbound freight, and a deceleration for inbound. I used to live at Pine and Memorial and it got to the point I could tell if a train was inbound or outbound by the sound, and it is a heavily used line. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would bet the cost just to change the line from downtown to the airport would be beyond $500 million. And I wouldn't be surprised that that would be the same costs for the BA line and the Jenks line, let alone the Jenks line goes through one active refinery and an active power plant. I would think federal regulations prevent passenger traffic going through those areas.

[erfalf]

I'm sure there are better examples, but this is one I am familiar with.

DART in Dallas I believe used an existing rail line. However I have noticed that the current routes always have a pair of tracks, inbound and outbound essentially. Most of the lines in the Tulsa area are a single line. Is this a problem when considering commuter rail? I only ask because a solid 3 miles of the line out to BA has little room to add another track, if any.

Second, unrelated question. From an economic development perspective, which is preferred, an inter-city rail line, similar to Dart and what is being discussed above, or an intra-city line, similar to the KC streetcar that only has about 2 miles or so of track? Which is a bigger addition. I would guess the cost of the former would be considerably higher as well. Just curious which we would rather have. In my estimation, local service seems to me to be what is needed first. Otherwise, why take passenger rail when you loose your transportation at the station?

Personally I would like to see a KC type of thing done here very soon. Free to the people. Connects a few main commercial areas. This seems like a winner here.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I'm sure there are better examples, but this is one I am familiar with.

DART in Dallas I believe used an existing rail line. However I have noticed that the current routes always have a pair of tracks, inbound and outbound essentially. Most of the lines in the Tulsa area are a single line. Is this a problem when considering commuter rail? I only ask because a solid 3 miles of the line out to BA has little room to add another track, if any.

Second, unrelated question. From an economic development perspective, which is preferred, an inter-city rail line, similar to Dart and what is being discussed above, or an intra-city line, similar to the KC streetcar that only has about 2 miles or so of track? Which is a bigger addition. I would guess the cost of the former would be considerably higher as well. Just curious which we would rather have. In my estimation, local service seems to me to be what is needed first. Otherwise, why take passenger rail when you loose your transportation at the station?

Personally I would like to see a KC type of thing done here very soon. Free to the people. Connects a few main commercial areas. This seems like a winner here.

Most of the intercity systems, Phoenix/Dallas/SFO/Portland are dual rail setups, so that outbound trains can reach the end of the line unload and load and then leave the station and switch to the inbound line. More frequent station stops each direction because there is no stopping on a siding and waiting for another train to pass.

KC Streetcar appears to be a closed loop setup, one set of rails with the cars all going the same direction. The modern version of the street car in SFO uses a dual track setup and runs both ground and below ground level as a lot of the stops are in the same location as BART stations, so you can take BART into SFO and then transfer to Muni to get elswhere. Portland OR Streetcar is similar to SFO's Muni line in that it has two tracks running in a loop so you can catch a train going either direction.

[erfalf]

Most of the intercity systems, Phoenix/Dallas/SFO/Portland are dual rail setups, so that outbound trains can reach the end of the line unload and load and then leave the station and switch to the inbound line. More frequent station stops each direction because there is no stopping on a siding and waiting for another train to pass.

KC Streetcar appears to be a closed loop setup, one set of rails with the cars all going the same direction. The modern version of the street car in SFO uses a dual track setup and runs both ground and below ground level as a lot of the stops are in the same location as BART stations, so you can take BART into SFO and then transfer to Muni to get elswhere. Portland OR Streetcar is similar to SFO's Muni line in that it has two tracks running in a loop so you can catch a train going either direction.

Only in the River Market area is it one direction. It's basically a loop around City Market to head back south, instead of just switching tracks like the do at the southern terminus. Other than that area, it goes up and down Main street in both directions.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Only in the River Market area is it one direction. It's basically a loop around City Market to head back south, instead of just switching tracks like the do at the southern terminus. Other than that area, it goes up and down Main street in both directions.

Ah, okay, I was just looking at the map and the info from their site. I guess my point is intercity and intracity lines are great ideas if they are planned out right, and while to me an intracity route can work well in downtown Tulsa, an intercity lightrail really needs the intra part to really work well from my personal experiences.

Just as an example, when I lived in SW Oregon, I would drive down to San Francisco to see the Diamondbacks play the Giants at AT&T Park. I would stay in Fremont or Union City near the BART line and take that to the Embarcadero station and then go up one flight of stairs to the Muni line to get to the ball park. They actually had a special price for people going to the game for the Muni line for $4.00 for a ticket to the ballpark and back, and the BART ticket was ~$16.00 round trip. So for ~$20.00 I could go to a game and back for the price of parking in SF.

In Phoenix, the Metro Light Rail has stops that are near major bus routes and when you get into downtown areas the stops are near bus routes or short distances to business and venues. It's not perfect but it does provide good service and the ridership numbers are good.