Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[heironymouspasparagus]

Way past due.   Finally someone is giving some serious thought to practical, affordable transport.

Republican buddies big oil and auto are really gonna hate this....

9 minutes - going up the country...

18:30 min - linear motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e19Z_i1bR0w

[Conan71]

Philmont depends on the SW Chief which goes from Chicago to LA to get thousands of scouts and others to and from the ranch every year as well as other businesses around NE NM.  Looks like Amtrak is trying to shirk track maintenance costs and start running buses between Dodge City, Ks. and Albuquerque.  It's got our part of the state up in arms.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1193271/southwest-chief-rail-line-a-canary-in-the-coal-mine-ex-amtraks-decision-to-pull-back-from-agreement-to-back-northern-nm-service-may-signal-its-end.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Philmont depends on the SW Chief which goes from Chicago to LA to get thousands of scouts and others to and from the ranch every year as well as other businesses around NE NM.  Looks like Amtrak is trying to shirk track maintenance costs and start running buses between Dodge City, Ks. and Albuquerque.  It's got our part of the state up in arms.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1193271/southwest-chief-rail-line-a-canary-in-the-coal-mine-ex-amtraks-decision-to-pull-back-from-agreement-to-back-northern-nm-service-may-signal-its-end.html

There are winners and losers in every funding event.   If they fix that, what goes lacking??   We know this goes lacking since they are putting money elsewhere.  Couple of direct cause/effect moments here - 1, Congress making them do something.  2, Congress not funding it.

But hey, at least the richest got yet another big tax cut - and that is the important thing, after all.!!

[patric]

Hopes for passenger rail service linking Oklahoma City and Tulsa suffered a major setback Monday.

Stillwater Central Railroad failed to meet an Aug. 4 deadline for establishing a six-month pilot program to provide daily passenger rail service between Del City and Sapulpa, Tim Gatz, executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation announced Monday.

"The department is disappointed that the pilot program didn't launch, as it would have helped determine the long-term viability of passenger service on this line, but also understands the obstacles Stillwater Central is facing," the transportation department said in a news release. "ODOT will continue to be open to and explore other options from the private sector for a cost-effective solution for future passenger service."

Stillwater Central Railroad will be required to pay the state $2.8 million in liquidated damages, Gatz said, adding that discussions are currently in progress regarding how the payments will be made.

"They were unsuccessful in doing the pilot," Gatz said. "What the future holds — I wouldn't speculate on what the possibilities of something happening there in the future might be."

Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt called Monday's announcement "disappointing, but not necessarily a surprise."

"For those who were following the issue closely, I think we realized that the operator might ultimately decide that the penalty was easier to stomach than actual provision of service," he said.

Holt said he expects Tulsa and Oklahoma City leaders to continue to strive for connectivity, but believes state support will needed for that to actually occur.

"We hope the day arrives when that's a serious conversation we're having at the state level," he said, adding that he understood the state currently has other priorities.

"At least here in Oklahoma City, and in the metro, we're working together for the first time through a regional transit authority to contemplate commuter rail between our metro cities and that's a conversation that will ramp up in the years ahead," Holt said. "We're certainly looking at the rail issue from a regional standpoint, but that kind of distance between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is something the state will have to take the lead on."

Stillwater Central Railroad is part of the Watco Companies based in Pittsburg, Kan.

The railroad company had agreed to establish pilot passenger rail service as part of a $75 million agreement to purchase Sooner Sub rail assets from the state transportation department in 2014. The company has met all other provisions in the sales agreement, Gatz said. Those other requirements included upgrading the rail line, which continues to be used to transport freight.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s the Oklahoma Department of Transportation acquired about 900 miles of rail lines that were slated for abandonment to preserve those rail corridors for future operations, Gatz said. The department has since returned many of those lines to the private sector over the years, leaving it with about 160 miles of lines.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5637921/hopes-dashed-for-passenger-rail-service-linking-oklahoma-city-and-tulsa

[swake]

Hopes for passenger rail service linking Oklahoma City and Tulsa suffered a major setback Monday.

Stillwater Central Railroad failed to meet an Aug. 4 deadline for establishing a six-month pilot program to provide daily passenger rail service between Del City and Sapulpa, Tim Gatz, executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation announced Monday.

"The department is disappointed that the pilot program didn't launch, as it would have helped determine the long-term viability of passenger service on this line, but also understands the obstacles Stillwater Central is facing," the transportation department said in a news release. "ODOT will continue to be open to and explore other options from the private sector for a cost-effective solution for future passenger service."

Stillwater Central Railroad will be required to pay the state $2.8 million in liquidated damages, Gatz said, adding that discussions are currently in progress regarding how the payments will be made.

"They were unsuccessful in doing the pilot," Gatz said. "What the future holds — I wouldn't speculate on what the possibilities of something happening there in the future might be."

Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt called Monday's announcement "disappointing, but not necessarily a surprise."

"For those who were following the issue closely, I think we realized that the operator might ultimately decide that the penalty was easier to stomach than actual provision of service," he said.

Holt said he expects Tulsa and Oklahoma City leaders to continue to strive for connectivity, but believes state support will needed for that to actually occur.

"We hope the day arrives when that's a serious conversation we're having at the state level," he said, adding that he understood the state currently has other priorities.

"At least here in Oklahoma City, and in the metro, we're working together for the first time through a regional transit authority to contemplate commuter rail between our metro cities and that's a conversation that will ramp up in the years ahead," Holt said. "We're certainly looking at the rail issue from a regional standpoint, but that kind of distance between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is something the state will have to take the lead on."

Stillwater Central Railroad is part of the Watco Companies based in Pittsburg, Kan.

The railroad company had agreed to establish pilot passenger rail service as part of a $75 million agreement to purchase Sooner Sub rail assets from the state transportation department in 2014. The company has met all other provisions in the sales agreement, Gatz said. Those other requirements included upgrading the rail line, which continues to be used to transport freight.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s the Oklahoma Department of Transportation acquired about 900 miles of rail lines that were slated for abandonment to preserve those rail corridors for future operations, Gatz said. The department has since returned many of those lines to the private sector over the years, leaving it with about 160 miles of lines.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5637921/hopes-dashed-for-passenger-rail-service-linking-oklahoma-city-and-tulsa

It was always a scam. The state has never intended to expand rail service to Tulsa. Never.

[DTowner]

It was always a scam. The state has never intended to expand rail service to Tulsa. Never.

I think it's true that the promise made to the Tulsa legislatures to support OKC's Amtrak subsidy and then Tulsa's turn would be "next year" was a ruse.  This plan, however, was always a joke.  A private company will never finance even a somewhat sort of high speed rail line between OKC and Tulsa.  As California's dying effort demonstrates, the enormous costs simply cannot be justified by the marginal benefits.  OKC/Oklahoma leaders simply have nothing to gain by connecting OKC to Tulsa by rail and will never spend the huge sums of money to do so.

[buffalodan]

Can we still be sad that there isn't even a normal speed train that goes from Downtown Tulsa to Downtown OKC? Just doing that at ~100mph would make me happy. It's not as weird as Vegas not having service, but we have to be one of the bigger cities that doesn't have train

[SXSW]

Can we still be sad that there isn't even a normal speed train that goes from Downtown Tulsa to Downtown OKC? Just doing that at ~100mph would make me happy. It's not as weird as Vegas not having service, but we have to be one of the bigger cities that doesn't have train

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of support with Tulsa city leaders, including Mayor Bynum.  Rail between OKC and Tulsa needs a champion in a high elected office.

You can trace this back to Senator Nickles...from 1999 when the political climate was quite a bit different than it is now.  If this had been set up as originally intended we would likely have Amtrak service on the Heartland Flyer from Ft Worth to OKC continuing to Tulsa.  Possibly even further to either Kansas City or St Louis.

Oklahomans would have been better represented in the Amtrak negotiations had Nickles and McCaleb included state legislators in the talks instead of cutting the deal on their own, according to Senator Herbert.

"If the Legislature had been involved, we wouldn't be stuck with such a bare bones operation. Oklahomans would have gotten a train they could be proud of, instead of a sack lunch special," said Senator Herbert.

The lawmaker pointed out that $23 million in federal money has been set aside for Amtrak service in Oklahoma, the lion's share of which is supposed to finance rail and crossing improvements that will allow the train to travel 90 mph. However, it appears Nickles and McCaleb plan to spend the money on a bares bones service that has little chance of building ridership and succeeding. When the money runs out, the train will stop running.

"We're supposed to be making track improvements that will allow us to extend the passenger line to Tulsa and beyond. Instead, McCaleb and Nickles are setting up a nickel and dime train service that will slowly bleed away our money and then fold because no effort was put into it. They've designed this deal to fail," noted Senator Herbert.

"This is typical of them. You can bet they'll show up for the press and the pictures, but when the media glare fades, where are they?"

http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_1999/PR990524.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of support with Tulsa city leaders, including Mayor Bynum.  Rail between OKC and Tulsa needs a champion in a high elected office.

You can trace this back to Senator Nickles...from 1999 when the political climate was quite a bit different than it is now:
http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_1999/PR990524.html

I would settle for the sack lunch special...thrilled even!

[DTowner]

Can we still be sad that there isn't even a normal speed train that goes from Downtown Tulsa to Downtown OKC? Just doing that at ~100mph would make me happy. It's not as weird as Vegas not having service, but we have to be one of the bigger cities that doesn't have train

Sure, but 100 mph would be considered very high speed rail by U.S. standards.  Even with upgrades, given the turns and crossings, passenger rail between Tulsa and OKC on existing track would be lucky to average 40/45 mph.

[patric]

Can we still be sad that there isn't even a normal speed train that goes from Downtown Tulsa to Downtown OKC? Just doing that at ~100mph would make me happy. It's not as weird as Vegas not having service, but we have to be one of the bigger cities that doesn't have train

France has formally banned domestic flights on short routes that can be covered by train in less than two-and-a-half hours in a move aimed at reducing airline emissions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/24/france-bans-short-haul-flights-in-effort-to-fight-climate-change

[swake]

France has formally banned domestic flights on short routes that can be covered by train in less than two-and-a-half hours in a move aimed at reducing airline emissions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/24/france-bans-short-haul-flights-in-effort-to-fight-climate-change

It's been many years since there was air service between Tulsa and OKC. And those test rail runs between Sapulpa and OKC a few years ago took three hours and cost $64 a ticket.

To compare, with the new 80mph speed limit on the Turner, driving takes just an hour and half and costs maybe $17 in gas and tolls for up to 4 people.

[Red Arrow]

Sometime in the late 70s, I was on a commercial flight that had a stop in OKC before a final destination of TUL.  I don't remember where the flight originated or whether I got on at OKC or was just there for the stop.  It was a jet though.  I kind of remember the Captain saying we would cruise at 15, 000 ft, maybe less but more than 10,000 ft, so they could go faster than 250 knots.

In the early 70s, I took a commercial turbo-prop puddle jumper flight from Memphis-Little Rock-Ft Smith-Muskogee-Tulsa.  The plane was almost empty.  I think it was a Convair 580 which was a turbo-prop conversion of a late 40s design twin piston engine airliner.  Probably either Frontier or Ozark Airlines.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

It's been many years since there was air service between Tulsa and OKC. And those test rail runs between Sapulpa and OKC a few years ago took three hours and cost $64 a ticket.

To compare, with the new 80mph speed limit on the Turner, driving takes just an hour and half and costs maybe $17 in gas and tolls for up to 4 people.

I've been following the discussion about rail service between Tulsa and OKC for some time, and as cool as I think it would be it doesn't seem practical from several points. To get anything that comes close to high speed, let's say 100 MPH, there would have to be special built track to handle those kinds of speeds. It just requires too much straight line and gentle curves to accommodate that kind of speed.

The other issue is how many of the towns in between are going to want to have stations for people that want to go to say Stroud, Chandler, Bristow to visit family. Those towns don't want to be left out and will lobby for stops there which will add to the travel time.

While not trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I have been following the development and construction of California's "LA to SF Bullet Train" and have traveled a lot through the central valley where it is currently under construction that started in 2015 or 2016 and still have not laid a single piece of rail, and their hopes are to have the first segment of 171 miles, complete between Bakersfield and Merced, operational by 2030. That segment is already $10 billion over the initial budget of $25 billion. The original proposed budget for the entire system was proposed at $33 billion. The new budget is projected to be $128 billion.

https://calmatters.org/economy/2023/03/california-high-speed-rail/

The route through the central valley is flatter than a route from Tulsa to OKC. It's a lot like driving up I-35 from Guthrie to Wichita. The initial segment will basically parallel CA-99 between Bakersfield and Merced with stops along the way, and it also parallels an existing AMTRAK line.

They've built several, as they call them viaducts, in Fresno, but not much else.

https://goo.gl/maps/4zznm8jhtpZp5GGq5

https://goo.gl/maps/rFvYRV8TXe9UcxTi7

https://goo.gl/maps/GKfsQ9gnqGRTLT3M6

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Sometime in the late 70s, I was on a commercial flight that had a stop in OKC before a final destination of TUL.  I don't remember where the flight originated or whether I got on at OKC or was just there for the stop.  It was a jet though.  I kind of remember the Captain saying we would cruise at 15, 000 ft, maybe less but more than 10,000 ft, so they could go faster than 250 knots.

In the early 70s, I took a commercial turbo-prop puddle jumper flight from Memphis-Little Rock-Ft Smith-Muskogee-Tulsa.  The plane was almost empty.  I think it was a Convair 580 which was a turbo-prop conversion of a late 40s design twin piston engine airliner.  Probably either Frontier or Ozark Airlines.

Funny you mention this. The first time I flew by myself was in 1975, at age 12, between Tulsa and OKC on an AA 727 and the flight was about 30 minutes, and then again with ex #2 on a trip we won a trip to Las Vegas that was TUL/OKC/Las Vegas and a reverse for the return trip on a 737 was about 30 minutes between TUL and OKC. and both were climb out for 10 minute, level for about 10 minutes, and descent for 10 minutes.