Chandler Park Backcountry

[Vision 2025]

I have spent some time exploring around there. The upper part is very rugged with lots of ravines, since in the early days of Tulsa they mined the area for rock to build bridges and roads. I'm told they actually had a ramp they slid rock down into waiting barges on the river. It looks believable. Some imposing abutments still there. I hiked the area below Avery Road from the base of Chandler (private property) to the SS Home property just below hwy 97. I knew the owners. Very nice hike. You can also see where folks have been repelling the nearby cliffs overlooking that point. It deserves more attention than it gets, but then its got that West Tulsa, County Park, Industrial setting working against it.

At one time the Chandler's had a rock cleaning and RR loading station in there below Avery Drive along with a training jetty constructed of waste cap rock that went about half 1/3 the way across the river and was used to form a pool for pumping water to the crushers and washers and to form a drop out zone below it for sand mining, it was located at the creek about 1/2 mile west of the park.  I hit the buried remnants of it crossing the river with a pair of force mains going to the SS Waste Water Treatment Plant in the 90's.  When trying to figure out what we bumped into I was told it washed out in the 58 or 59 flood and wasn't rebuilt.... that wasn't a very fun winter!

[AquaMan]

You are a fine source of info for that kind of stuff on the river. Did you know Bob Chandler?

[RecycleMichael]

I met with the County Commissioner and this landowner a few months back. I agree with Conan's assessment of the land being over-valued on the owner's part.

[cannon_fodder]

I met with the County Commissioner and this landowner a few months back. I agree with Conan's assessment of the land being over-valued on the owner's part.

Are you saying he's asking for more than the $700 fair market value assessment the County is giving?
http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99218921824930&return=close

$77 a year in taxes. Seems exceptionally low for 5 acres of land even if it wasn't in the City, or overlooking a river, or next to a park, or... maybe something to do with post-superfund status? Who knows. But at $77 a year upkeep... he can sit on it forever.

There's a few other parcels back in there too. But this is the one directly next to Chandler.
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Man, if we made that park into a biking/hiking area, even if we left the 4 wheelers a section to destroy their tracks (too muddy to run, so we move the track 10 feet. Too muddy to run, so...), it would still be an awesome asset. People under estimate bikers and hikers who do long weekends. And probably 4 wheelers too...

[Conan71]

Are you saying he's asking for more than the $700 fair market value assessment the County is giving?
http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99218921824930&return=close

$77 a year in taxes. Seems exceptionally low for 5 acres of land even if it wasn't in the City, or overlooking a river, or next to a park, or... maybe something to do with post-superfund status? Who knows. But at $77 a year upkeep... he can sit on it forever.

There's a few other parcels back in there too. But this is the one directly next to Chandler.
- -

Man, if we made that park into a biking/hiking area, even if we left the 4 wheelers a section to destroy their tracks (too muddy to run, so we move the track 10 feet. Too muddy to run, so...), it would still be an awesome asset. People under estimate bikers and hikers who do long weekends. And probably 4 wheelers too...

The 60 acres GKFF recently purchased for $2.9 million on the western flank of Turkey Mountain was only being taxed at $26 per year.

[Vision 2025]

You are a fine source of info for that kind of stuff on the river. Did you know Bob Chandler?

Yes.

[SXSW]

Sounds like a similar situation to the Mid-Continent plant on the West Bank.  The land owner thinks their property is worth way more than it really is.  That is encouraging to hear it has been on the county's radar to acquire it.  I think you only need to look at how successful Turkey Mountain has been and see the same possibility with this area.  While not as centrally located it is also much larger and offers more "wilderness" than TM.  Why would you not preserve and protect such a unique area within 10 miles of downtown.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Sounds like a similar situation to the Mid-Continent plant on the West Bank.  The land owner thinks their property is worth way more than it really is.  That is encouraging to hear it has been on the county's radar to acquire it.  I think you only need to look at how successful Turkey Mountain has been and see the same possibility with this area.  While not as centrally located it is also much larger and offers more "wilderness" than TM.  Why would you not preserve and protect such a unique area within 10 miles of downtown.

It's worth it to them. 

[AquaMan]

Always lost on this crowd. The value of a piece of property is what a buyer will pay, and a seller is willing to sell for. Its valuation for other purposes is irrelevant to its value to a buyer and seller.

IOW, who cares what the bank thinks my 2008 Ford Edge is worth if its a cash deal? My insurance company has agreed with me on a value for its replacement but that has nothing to do with its value to me.

A mortgage company may value a property based on its perceived market value to protect its bottom line but that isn't necessarily its value.

Sometimes they don't even know how to assess a market value on an item (such as an antique firetruck) and therefore are unwilling to loan on it. Does that mean the item is valueless?

[Breadburner]

Always lost on this crowd. The value of a piece of property is what a buyer will pay, and a seller is willing to sell for. Its valuation for other purposes is irrelevant to its value to a buyer and seller.

IOW, who cares what the bank thinks my 2008 Ford Edge is worth if its a cash deal? My insurance company has agreed with me on a value for its replacement but that has nothing to do with its value to me.

A mortgage company may value a property based on its perceived market value to protect its bottom line but that isn't necessarily its value.

Sometimes they don't even know how to assess a market value on an item (such as an antique firetruck) and therefore are unwilling to loan on it. Does that mean the item is valueless?

Not true...

[AquaMan]

True. There are exceptions where one party takes advantage of another and legal remedies are available, but in general, there are different methods and reasons for determining value. If I own a concrete plant on the West side of the river and I think its worth $30 million to me then it matters not that others find its market value to be out of line with similar properties or "inflated". Each property has its own unique characteristics.

The government may value it at more or less depending on other factors than buyer/seller and in fact may value it for less than my value for eminent domain purposes.

In the end something is worth what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to sell.

Am I behind the times? Show me.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Not true...

That proves it..!! 

True!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Always lost on this crowd. The value of a piece of property is what a buyer will pay, and a seller is willing to sell for. Its valuation for other purposes is irrelevant to its value to a buyer and seller.

IOW, who cares what the bank thinks my 2008 Ford Edge is worth if its a cash deal? My insurance company has agreed with me on a value for its replacement but that has nothing to do with its value to me.

A mortgage company may value a property based on its perceived market value to protect its bottom line but that isn't necessarily its value.

Sometimes they don't even know how to assess a market value on an item (such as an antique firetruck) and therefore are unwilling to loan on it. Does that mean the item is valueless?

I have an old raggedy-a$$ rust car that is "worth" maybe a hundred bucks for scrap steel.  I won't take anything less than $75,000 cash for it.  That means I am extremely attached to it, but I do have my price....

[cannon_fodder]

Decent points AquaMan, but you overstate it.

Simply because you say your 1996 Ford Taurus is worth $25,000 --- it doesn't make it so. The actual cash value of that vehicle is nothing more than the market is willing to pay for it. If you aren't willing to sell at that price, so be it. But the value is set by the external market. (yes, yes, I get that the owner is a theoretical "buyer" and by not selling he is the highest bidder... but that leads to wildly illogical outcomes like a 1996 Taurus being worth $25k because the owner says it is, which no rational person would factor into the average value of a 1996 Ford Taurus).

On real property, if the owner lists it at $3mil and the market will only pay $1mil, the property has a market value of $1mil and an owner that doesn't want to sell. Nothing more, nothing less. The owner may be working in externalities that the market doesn't care about -  the income he can earn from it that the market cannot, the pain in the butt of moving his business/home, nostalgia, or an optimistic rise in future value.  All legitimate reasons to hold out for a higher price in the future. But it doesn't mean the property has an actual value of $3mil... that is, in fact, an inflated value as far as the market is concerned.

My favorite example are baseball cards. Just because the book says the card is worth $500, doesn't mean anything. Just because I'm determined to hold onto the card until someone pays me $500, doesn't mean anything. The card is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay me for it. The naked, callous, market driven, cash value of the object.

[AquaMan]

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing on my basic premise. It is worth what a buyer will pay AND a seller will accept. Its value then is not determined ONLY by what the market will pay any more than it is determined ONLY by what the seller is asking. His market may be only one person in Switzerland that isn't aware of its availability! 

For all we know that property on the West Bank is enabling the company to make a better profit than any other similar property that is available. So, like you said, its basically not for sale.