Ban Food Trucks?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes, because I don't think they should have a market advantage, pay very little taxes and have little to no oversight from the health department while others do.

Why is it you are ignoring the reality??  That seems suspicious on the surface....


They collect and remit exactly the same sales taxes you do.  They pay property taxes in direct proportion to their rent for a space, dependent on how the landlord analyses his property value and expense, and charges rent - if you have a beef with that, it should be with the landlord, not the truck.

Oversight - well, I posted a link to the health department requirements - all you had to do was go read them.  They are subject to the same inspections you are, if they are doing any cooking.  The only thing they get a pass on is if they sell only prepackaged prepared food, and even then they have to conform to the same refrigeration you have if selling perishables.  Sinks and washing - identical.  A certified food manager is required on the premises, just like yours.  Food handler permits - same.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

This isn't a chain vs. local argument. On our block we have multiple local places that serve food. If I owned Dave's Subs and changed the menu every day, it would not matter. My point is that they pay less money into the system and it weakens downtown development. My opinion is a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the company I work for.

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with you because as the owner of a B&M franchise I feel that you are biased in your opinion. Having eaten from food trucks in Phoenix, LA, San Francisco, and Portland I have found some good niche places, and some of them do have a B&M location as well. The other thing that I have found is that I find other local B&M places to try.


If I was to go into the food service business with something that I think would sell, I would rather do a food truck based on the initial investment, as a guess I could purchase a good used truck for $60k,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/09/27/the-cost-of-starting-a-food-truck/

http://www.inc.com/guides/2010/05/opening-a-successful-food-truck.html

and low inventory food costs, and lets say another $2000.00 for licensing, tax permits (fed/state/city/county), corporation/llc fees, I could start a business for $75k. That's a manageable risk, and the potential to grow it, and maybe move into a small B&M based on the results of sales seems more enticing.

[davideinstein]

Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

[Conan71]

And as purely a matter of free-market economics, the owner of Hey Mambo! is just as free to purchase a food truck to go along with his fixed base operation or shut down his operation and go mobile.  His former mother-in-law has done just that, though she parks her Airstream where there's not a lot of food options, or at least she used to.  I haven't visited her for lunch in about a year.

The only real competition advantage I could see in your example is if Andolini's pulled a total #dickmove and parked across the street from Hey Mambo! on Weds. and sold pizza for $2 a slice less.

The consumer ultimately has final say in who represents the best value for their dining dollar or tastes.  

I would agree they have an unfair advantage economically if they were offering vastly lower prices.  To be perfectly honest, I don't see any food trucks engaging in predatory pricing that is any lower than their fixed base competitors.  The only advantage I see they have is they are free to move around to under-served areas or to set up quickly at festivals.  I don't see much of a difference in that regard to restaurants which have catering services.  

Those who innovate, exploit their market, and respond to changes in tastes will always be the most successful.  Aside from financial mis-management, the better majority of restaurants failed because they didn't offer a good product or the consumer does not believe the value is worth the asking price.

It's still a lot of work and if they employ anyone they must do the same payroll taxes and carry worker's comp, etc. Again, just not seeing an unfair advantage.  I believe the food truck culture adds to the hipness and livability factor to Tulsa.

Your opinion doesn't offend me, I just don't think it registers with the reality of the food trucks.

And just as disclosure- I can count the number of times I eat off a food truck in a year on one hand.  I'm not one of their biggest customers by any means.  Heck I eat at JJ's at least twice as much during the course of the year.  Now that I think of it, JJ's is about the only franchise we even support with our dining, everything else I can think of is locally-owned.  You guys make a good sandwich, that's what I order when I'm in the mood for it.  When I'm in the mood for Banh Mi, either my wife makes it or I figure out where Lone Wolf is that day.  That's how most folks roll: they eat what they are in the mood for that is convenient to their location.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

As explicitly as I can make it - what "more taxes"??  As in - examples!!

Since property taxes are paid by the truck guy - lumped in with rent - he is paying proportionately the same - as has been pointed out before, and was ignored. 

More labor taxes?  As a function of having 2 or 3 people running the truck versus 15 or 20 for the B&M - the rates are identical.  (And if you mention unemployment or social security or ANY other expenses associated with an employee, you give up the right to talk to anyone about "Total Compensation" - ever!!)

Regular hours - specious grasping at straws.  If the food truck is not consistent, he will not have a consistent customer base.  (Come on - you can do better!!  I've seen it before!)


Host of reasons - since taxes are not a valid one, health department issues are not, licensing/permitting are not - what other reasons?

[RecycleMichael]

How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

[Conan71]

How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

If the truck is paying a retailer a cut to park outside their business, that would be considered "rent".  There is also a requirement I'm vaguely familiar with and that is they must have a commercial prep kitchen available to them but I have no idea how that comes into play or when it's required.  I know Terri Fermo (Bohemian Love) utilizes one around 33rd & Harvard, and I believe Mr. Nice Guys uses one at 37th & Harvard.  Obviously there's property tax figured into that rent as well.  The tag for the truck would be considered property tax, but obviously that is not going to come close to property tax on brick and mortar.

Still, if the food truck doesn't exploit lower tax costs by selling at vastly lower prices, I don't see any unfair advantage being gained in terms of costs of operation.

[RecycleMichael]

Still, if the food truck doesn't exploit lower tax costs by selling at vastly lower prices, I don't see any unfair advantage being gained in terms of costs of operation.

I agree with that statement. I never see great prices on food trucks. Many of them are quite proud of their food.

Most of the food trucks I buy from are parked on the street. There is almost always one or two parked downtown during lunch and many of them on Wednesdays at the Guthrie Green. I don't think any of them are paying any kind of rent.

[Conan71]

I agree with that statement. I never see great prices on food trucks. Many of them are quite proud of their food.

Most of the food trucks I buy from are parked on the street. There is almost always one or two parked downtown during lunch and many of them on Wednesdays at the Guthrie Green. I don't think any of them are paying any kind of rent.

And, if not rent, some food truck owners may have to pay for a spot to store their truck when they are not using it or they may have a payment on the truck and improvements.

I'm sure you are correct on no rent on GG Weds or when they pull to the curb.  I am aware of some food trucks having a rent or split arrangement outside the IDL and one that has an arrangement with a bar downtown to park in their lot on weekends and some weeknights.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

So, you want to over tax competition because you feel, your opinion, that they have an unfair advantage, and don't pay their fair share, and that hurts your business. You know, just my opinion, I was not impressed by JJ's, it's a sub sandwich. When I get back to Tulsa, I will go to Bill & Ruth's or Hero's, and if I want a burger I will go to Ron's, Hank's, Goldie's or Lot-A-Burger.

But to think that food trucks need to be taxed more, sorry, JJ's has permanently lost a potential customer.

[saintnicster]

So, you want to over tax competition because you feel, your opinion, that they have an unfair advantage, and don't pay their fair share, and that hurts your business. You know, just my opinion, I was not impressed by JJ's, it's a sub sandwich. When I get back to Tulsa, I will go to Bill & Ruth's or Hero's, and if I want a burger I will go to Ron's, Hank's, Goldie's or Lot-A-Burger.

But to think that food trucks need to be taxed more, sorry, JJ's has permanently lost a potential customer.

Remember though, he said it isn't hurting JJ's business    He's worried about the other brick and mortar stores around 

[heironymouspasparagus]

How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

That goes to one of my questions way back at the beginning of this...are there no ordinances in Tulsa that would prevent that type parking?  I don't know - have never investigated just squatting on the street....may have to try it!!

[Vision 2025]

Wouldn't that come under the Business Activity Tax (BAT)?

[RecycleMichael]

I thought the business activity tax was based on net value of the company. I would think the net value of a food truck would generally be less than a brick and mortar store.

[Conan71]

I thought the business activity tax was based on net value of the company. I would think the net value of a food truck would generally be less than a brick and mortar store.

The only asset value to the owner of a restaurant would be any lease-hold improvements they made or equipment they have purchased if they only rent the brick and mortar part of the business.  In many cases, the landlord also owns the lions share of any built-in equipment if there have been prior restaurant tenants who have come and gone.  In that case, the food truck owner may well have more assets than a B & M operation.