Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[rebound]

It looks like the eastern border of the mall abuts a section we refer to as pipeline (there's a pipeliner road which runs north to south).  It affects lesser used expert trails for the most part as well as some intermediate and easier trails which connect the Westside Y to the area where the mall will be.  There's still plenty of trail access from the Y to the rest of the trail system.  Just a wild guess, but probably less than 20% of the people who use the Turkey Mountain/YMCA trail system utilize this particular area.

I've only ridden Turkey Mountain once or twice, and never in the area in question, but this thread got my interest up and I spent a little time just now looking around on-line at maps and need to ask a couple of questions:

The INCOG trail map (see link) shows a ton of trails in the NW section of Turkey Mountain:
http://incog.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicGallery/map.html?appid=1a8472e4977843388265fe1a973b3c9d&webmap=856ab3929fb14561a5d75b989e887d1a

But the River Parks Trail Map (PDF available as first link on the page below)  shows a much smaller official park boundary for Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area:
http://www.riverparks.org/explore-river-parks/park-maps-trail-conditions/

The difference in outline of the two maps seems to be about 320 acres (a guess, based on mile lines).  And the land for the new mall is (again, an estimate) about 80 acres.  Which leaves roughly 240 acres that is full of trails, but not (as far as I can tell) part of the official wilderness area.  That is a  huge chunk of real estate that, if developed, would really put a crimp in Turkey Mountain as it is now understood to be.

So, who owns the land in question?  And has any consideration been given to protecting it?

I know I'm probably really late to the party with this, so if there is an old string, etc, please point me to it.  Otherwise, any info appreciated.

 

[Stanley1]

Oh, this has been expensive and is going to continue to be expensive. The city already gave TIF money to Tulsa Hills to even open, and then Tulsa widened 81st from Olympia to US75 and has completely rebuilt 71st from the river to 33rd W Ave.  The exits at 81st and 61st are old and tiny and won't be up to all this traffic so the state will have to be replace them, very soon. 75 itself is already overloaded with traffic so you are probably looking at a couple of hundred million to fix the highway from I-44 to 81st. Then 61st will have to be widened, and 81st from Olympia to Elwood, and then Elwood itself with a major intersections completed at 81st and Elwood, 81st and Union and 61st and Union. This is easily going to cost what the BOK Center and Oneok cost, combined.

75 is probably next in line to be updated/expanded anyways.  So that will work out nice.  The I44 project is wrapping up.  The Creek Turnpike has been widened.  169 appears fine to me.  244 has had a lot of work done in recent years, including the new bridge that will be finished soon.

Pack up the crew, and simply move them over to 75.

[Conan71]

Oh, this has been expensive and is going to continue to be expensive. The city already gave TIF money to Tulsa Hills to even open, and then Tulsa widened 81st from Olympia to US75 and has completely rebuilt 71st from the river to 33rd W Ave.  The exits at 81st and 61st are old and tiny and won't be up to all this traffic so the state will have to be replace them, very soon. 75 itself is already overloaded with traffic so you are probably looking at a couple of hundred million to fix the highway from I-44 to 81st. Then 61st will have to be widened, and 81st from Olympia to Elwood, and then Elwood itself with a major intersections completed at 81st and Elwood, 81st and Union and 61st and Union. This is easily going to cost what the BOK Center and Oneok cost, combined.

The stretch of Elwood/61st from Hwy 75 to 71st St. is a pretty hazardous stretch of road with no shoulder, blind hills, and the huge hill which tops out at the old Turkey parking lot.  I suspect we will see a good uptick in accidents along there if they don't update the road first.  I've seen a couple of roll-overs on Elwood hill in the recent past.

[rdj]

75 is probably next in line to be updated/expanded anyways.  So that will work out nice.  The I44 project is wrapping up.  The Creek Turnpike has been widened.  169 appears fine to me.  244 has had a lot of work done in recent years, including the new bridge that will be finished soon.

Pack up the crew, and simply move them over to 75.

169 from the Creek north is the next in line.  Not for widening necessarily but for repair of the shoddy job the first contractor did.

[Conan71]

I've only ridden Turkey Mountain once or twice, and never in the area in question, but this thread got my interest up and I spent a little time just now looking around on-line at maps and need to ask a couple of questions:

The INCOG trail map (see link) shows a ton of trails in the NW section of Turkey Mountain:
http://incog.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicGallery/map.html?appid=1a8472e4977843388265fe1a973b3c9d&webmap=856ab3929fb14561a5d75b989e887d1a

But the River Parks Trail Map (PDF available as first link on the page below)  shows a much smaller official park boundary for Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area:
http://www.riverparks.org/explore-river-parks/park-maps-trail-conditions/

The difference in outline of the two maps seems to be about 320 acres (a guess, based on mile lines).  And the land for the new mall is (again, an estimate) about 80 acres.  Which leaves roughly 240 acres that is full of trails, but not (as far as I can tell) part of the official wilderness area.  That is a  huge chunk of real estate that, if developed, would really put a crimp in Turkey Mountain as it is now understood to be.

So, who owns the land in question?  And has any consideration been given to protecting it?

I know I'm probably really late to the party with this, so if there is an old string, etc, please point me to it.  Otherwise, any info appreciated.

 

The Westside Y is at the far NW end of the trails.  I have no idea how far their property reaches, there aren't any boundary fences I've observed on this part of the area (other than along 61st St.), though there are some in the area which is the "official" Turkey Mountain wilderness area.  This project will still leave quite a bit of trail for hiking and biking if you look at the Incog map.  I prefer the west side when the main area gets crowded with walkers and runners at peak times, it's becoming more hazardous, especially with all the people who let their dogs run loose or have them on long leads.

I suspect the land to the west of the power line section is mostly privately owned but the owner must not be too concerned about others using their property.  Same with land to the south of 61st St.  There's been quite a bit of trail building in that area as well over the last year and I'm guessing other than the water tower enclosure at the top of Elwood hill, the rest of that land is privately owned.

One concern for me as well is this is natural habitat for foxes, bobcats, and all sorts of creatures.  I hate to see them getting squeezed even more.

[swake]

The stretch of Elwood/61st from Hwy 75 to 71st St. is a pretty hazardous stretch of road with no shoulder, blind hills, and the huge hill which tops out at the old Turkey parking lot.  I suspect we will see a good uptick in accidents along there if they don't update the road first.  I've seen a couple of roll-overs on Elwood hill in the recent past.

Elwood is closed right now going north from 71st. Does anyone know what's going on?

[swake]

The Westside Y is at the far NW end of the trails.  I have no idea how far their property reaches, there aren't any boundary fences I've observed on this part of the area (other than along 61st St.), though there are some in the area which is the "official" Turkey Mountain wilderness area.  This project will still leave quite a bit of trail for hiking and biking if you look at the Incog map.  I prefer the west side when the main area gets crowded with walkers and runners at peak times, it's becoming more hazardous, especially with all the people who let their dogs run loose or have them on long leads.

I suspect the land to the west of the power line section is mostly privately owned but the owner must not be too concerned about others using their property.  Same with land to the south of 61st St.  There's been quite a bit of trail building in that area as well over the last year and I'm guessing other than the water tower enclosure at the top of Elwood hill, the rest of that land is privately owned.

One concern for me as well is this is natural habitat for foxes, bobcats, and all sorts of creatures.  I hate to see them getting squeezed even more.

That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.

[Conan71]

Elwood is closed right now going north from 71st. Does anyone know what's going on?

Final stage of the 71st & Elwood project is what I heard.

[SXSW]

That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.

I was hoping that was where it was going.  I think it's a bad idea to have this so close to Turkey Mtn and wish this land was protected in some way.  Plenty of other plots of land to put this that are not abutting a cherished urban wilderness.

I think it is inevitable that this whole part of Tulsa fills up with development, similar to what happened in south Tulsa 15-20 years ago.  It has highway access (though 75 will need to be upgraded), relative close proximity to downtown and midtown across the river, finally a good variety of retail (still needs a full service grocery store) and decent schools in the Jenks district to 61st St (a Jenks northwest elem school is planned to accommodate the growth and likely another middle school).  The rolling hills remind me of parts of south Tulsa before it exploded with development in the 90's, hopefully some of it is preserved.

[YoungTulsan]

That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.

That would be directly across the street from the crime infested housing projects.  That'll never happen.   You'll note that the only business at 61st & Union is a blunt mart.

[rdj]

A big chunk of the land south of the Pepsi plant and north of 61st between the river and where this outlet mall is reported to go is owned by an LLC with Frederic Dorwart listed as the registered agent.  Dorwart is Kaiser's attorney.  Not too hard to jump to the conclusion he controls a bunch of the land around Turkey Mountain and will make sure it remains public lands.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Just another Simon mess....

[Conan71]

A big chunk of the land south of the Pepsi plant and north of 61st between the river and where this outlet mall is reported to go is owned by an LLC with Frederic Dorwart listed as the registered agent.  Dorwart is Kaiser's attorney.  Not too hard to jump to the conclusion he controls a bunch of the land around Turkey Mountain and will make sure it remains public lands.

That is good to know.  Any other owners listed in the area?

[sgrizzle]

This plot of land was going to be a medical office park or summat a few years ago. There was even a thread on here about it.

Contrary to what people may think, developers don't just point at a blank space on the map and say "build there" they are generally looking at properties available for development or sale. South side of 61st just may not be available. South of 81st and you get into no big plots and unhappy neighbors. I suspect 61st will be widened from 75 to the mall, possibly at developer's expense, with all traffic directed to 75. Elwood would stay local only.

[Conan71]

This plot of land was going to be a medical office park or summat a few years ago. There was even a thread on here about it.

Contrary to what people may think, developers don't just point at a blank space on the map and say "build there" they are generally looking at properties available for development or sale. South side of 61st just may not be available. South of 81st and you get into no big plots and unhappy neighbors. I suspect 61st will be widened from 75 to the mall, possibly at developer's expense, with all traffic directed to 75. Elwood would stay local only.

One could hope, but there's nothing to keep people from short-cutting from 71st to the mall unless they blocked Elwood from the peak of Elwood Hill to east of the Mall.  Other than some property entrances and the water tower, there's nothing else which needs access from the road after the neighborhood to the west of the Turkey Mountain park entrance.