Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[sgrizzle]

That could prove the project un-doing unless Simon is used to spending millions upon millions in infrastructure.  The interchange may seem pretty academic to them.  What if the city or county required a complete overhaul of the 61st/Elwood ribbon of road to 71st?  I'm not sure enough money exists to make that a safe stretch of road for high traffic.

I've never seen a city/county ask for traffic improvements two ways on a project.

By all accounts Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills will bring as much vehicle traffic to 81st as the outlet will to 61st but they aren't being asked to improve 81st and Elwood which is just as many lanes as 61st is. I think this means you have your answer already.

[Conan71]

I've never seen a city/county ask for traffic improvements two ways on a project.

By all accounts Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills will bring as much vehicle traffic to 81st as the outlet will to 61st but they aren't being asked to improve 81st and Elwood which is just as many lanes as 61st is. I think this means you have your answer already.

81st between Union and Elwood does not have several big elevation changes, a blind turn and good sized drop offs on either side of the road.  It's not an accurate comparison.  Traffic congestion will be a biznitch on 81st.  People get killed on the other corridor from cars departing the roadway or head-ons.  As if to make a solid point of that:  As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.

[Red Arrow]

As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.

They will probably damage those organs too much to use again.

[Conan71]

They will probably damage those organs too much to use again.

Bad things happen to organs when they decelerate from 100 MPH to zero in a second or two.

[sgrizzle]

81st between Union and Elwood does not have several big elevation changes, a blind turn and good sized drop offs on either side of the road.  It's not an accurate comparison.  Traffic congestion will be a biznitch on 81st.  People get killed on the other corridor from cars departing the roadway or head-ons.  As if to make a solid point of that:  As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.

Your statement seems to assume such decisions are based on anything other than number of lanes.

[Conan71]

Your statement seems to assume such decisions are based on anything other than number of lanes.

You have to look at overall traffic density as well as relative safety of the road if you add significantly to the traffic count.  At least I hope they would, but this is government we are talking about so common sense probably has nothing to do with it.

[carltonplace]

You have to look at overall traffic density as well as relative safety of the road if you add significantly to the traffic count.  At least I hope they would, but this is government we are talking about so common sense probably has nothing to do with it.

it's not that common

[rdj]

Leases are often utilized to tie the property in the development phase then are converted to purchase at a later date.

Exactly my point.  Much easier for Simon to walk away from this project at this point than if they had executed a purchase.

[SXSW]

The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/

[sgrizzle]

The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/

Probably bad for the east Tulsa proposal, if it has any effect at all.

[DolfanBob]

The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/

Oh Gawd. They won't be happy till it resembles Disney World.

Cue the River Spirit announcement on an expansion to the Jimmy Buffett Hotel that's not even built yet.

[DTowner]

Probably bad for the east Tulsa proposal, if it has any effect at all.

Very bad for the east Tulsa outlet mall and Tulsa in general.  The east Tulsa outlet mall was Tulsa's best chance of shoring up its sales tax base in that area for the next decade or so.  I don't see how both of these projects can work out and the east Tulsa project was already in jeopardy from the potential Simon outlet mall on Hwy 75.

[Conan71]

Very bad for the east Tulsa outlet mall and Tulsa in general.  The east Tulsa outlet mall was Tulsa's best chance of shoring up its sales tax base in that area for the next decade or so.  I don't see how both of these projects can work out and the east Tulsa project was already in jeopardy from the potential Simon outlet mall on Hwy 75.

Simon has far more hurdles to clear.  I spoke at length last night to a developer who evaluated the Simon property for a retirement community some years back.  He said the site development costs are going to be astronomical because there is so much rock.  He also mentioned ONG owns 40 acres on the west side of 75 where apartments were proposed but residents of housing additions near there blocked it.  That would make for a better space for Simon and an easier on/off.

I keep hoping they will go away anyhow.

[SXSW]

If they have to develop the Turkey Mtn land by 75 the best thing would be a small office park.  Retail with its parking requirements and traffic is just a bad idea in that location.

By the way the Cherokee deal is for outlets which I would believe effectively kills the east Tulsa proposal and maybe Simon too: http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/cherokee-outlets-announced-for-hard-rock-casino-site/article_8edbf76b-dbf2-507b-b483-d3d7db8c5c70.html?mode=jqm

[sgrizzle]

If you wanted to know why Simon announced when the deal wasn't finalized, now you know.

Early bird gets the worm outlet.