Urban 8

[DTowner]

I lived in the Brady District for awhile with no parking spot which is way more crowded than the East Village.  Even during First Friday Art Crawl + Drillers + Tulsa Tough you could find parking pretty easy if you went a few blocks down the street. 

I don't think it would be hard to rent these if say, you got a discount for parking on the street.  I can't imagine street parking currently being difficult there at any time if you know how to parallel park (there are whole streets that are completely vacant nearby).  And if Santa Fe Square and the Boxyard and all that stuff really takes off and parking ever does get a little bit challenging, then that will be an awesome spot to live and people will just deal with parking a block of two away.  Walking a block or two to your car is pretty par for the course in an urban neighborhood, plus the people attracted to living there just might be the kind of people who most "get it" and are willing to trade driveways for walkability. 

I haven't had a reserved parking spot since 2013 and never had a real issue except once getting towed for unknowingly parking on the route of the Pride Parade. 

Each unit has an oversized 2-car garage, so parking would not seem to be an issue.  http://urban8tulsa.com/

[DTowner]

Interesting to note that the Zestimate is $350k & $391k for the 2 price options ($580k & $690k respectively).

$350-380K finished out would seem like a reasonable price and would be attractive to a decent number of buyers.  When The Edge fills up and if Santa Fe Square happens in the next 2-3 years, this neighborhood will be pretty lively and a buyer would have gotten in on the ground floor with a pretty good purchase.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Each unit has an oversized 2-car garage, so parking would not seem to be an issue.  http://urban8tulsa.com/

Wow!   I had not seen the plans before...those are truly atrocious as living space designs.  But I am sure someone will like them!

Elevator would be cool toy to have....!!

[rebound]

Wow!   I had not seen the plans before...those are truly atrocious as living space designs.  But I am sure someone will like them!

Elevator would be cool toy to have....!!

I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 

[cannon_fodder]

They look awesome to me. The garage and storage space. The rooftop terrace (particularly if you can put a grill and hot tub up there). The open 2nd floor. The penthouse area for whatever you wanted to do. 3rd floor options.  Balcony after balcony. If there was a small green patch ("English garden") in the back it'd be just about perfect IMHO.

One major modification I would have to make is to make the windows the type of glass that can go dark/tinted/fogged with the push of a button. That's a lot of apartment dwellers looking straight into your full glass bedroom. 

Also, the small detail that it's well out of my price range.

[DTowner]

I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 

Yes, this seems like a pretty common set up for a 3-story townhouse.

[Conan71]

$350-380K finished out would seem like a reasonable price and would be attractive to a decent number of buyers.  When The Edge fills up and if Santa Fe Square happens in the next 2-3 years, this neighborhood will be pretty lively and a buyer would have gotten in on the ground floor with a pretty good purchase.

Of course it would be a good purchase!  That's about $100/ft.  Unfortunately, I don't think that's a possibility due to land costs downtown to do new construction for that amount.  I'm not really sure it's possible to do $100/ft. once you count in the land cost anywhere in the city proper.  As my wife is an insurance agent, I am aware that typical replacement value for a residential structure in midtown Tulsa is about $100/ft.

Unfortunately, it would appear the developer and bank would take one heck of a loss at that.  If the place is truly still a blank slate and interior walls have not been constructed, it is possible it could be sub-divided.  $250,000 for an 800 to 1000 ft. loft would be more within reach for the average urbanite than $850,000 is for 3400 or so feet if the potential buyer could swallow the fact they were making a poor investment at $250/ft.

She might be able to dig herself out of the hole if she turned them into apartment flats and rented them for $1000 to $1500/month as corporate rentals- if each unit could be broken into three 800-1000 ft. units.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to have been one consistent rub on condo developments: In many cases, first buyers end up paying more than the secondary market will eventually bear.

[Bamboo World]

Converting from detached single family units to triplexes would be problematic for a number of reasons.

1. Fire rated separations between floors/apartments.
2. Stairs and windows are already in place.  Natural light from the front windows would be blocked by walling off the existing stair.
3. Kitchens.
4. Bathrooms.
5. Accessibility.

I'm not saying that the Urban 8 couldn't potentially become Urban 24, but I doubt if Yvonne could make the conversion viable, financially.

She might be able to lease the units out to groups of people who don't mind walking up and down stairs (I'm thinking younger people who might want to live downtown, but it could be older folks, too, I guess).  She might be able to find some people interested in leasing and keep herself solvent long enough for market conditions to change -- maybe...

But right now, there seems to be zero demand and a supply of eight units.

Also -- DTowner, rebound, myself, others: We've been calling these "townhouses."  Urban 8's website calls them "townhomes."  They really aren't typical 3-story townhouses or rowhouses.  They're 4-story, detached, single-family dwellings.  Typical townhouses and rowhouses often share at least one wall with another unit, but not always.  In a typical townhouse or rowhouse, the stair is located along a sidewall, not across the front. 

[Conan71]

Converting from detached single family units to triplexes would be problematic for a number of reasons.

1. Fire rated separations between floors/apartments.
2. Stairs and windows are already in place.  Natural light from the front windows would be blocked by walling off the existing stair.
3. Kitchens.
4. Bathrooms.
5. Accessibility.

I'm not saying that the Urban 8 couldn't potentially become Urban 24, but I doubt if Yvonne could make the conversion viable, financially.

She might be able to lease the units out to groups of people who don't mind walking up and down stairs (I'm thinking younger people who might want to live downtown, but it could be older folks, too, I guess).  She might be able to find some people interested in leasing and keep herself solvent long enough for market conditions to change -- maybe...

But right now, there seems to be zero demand and a supply of eight units. 

If not for the fire separation issues here's a thought:

It could be awkward, but bear with me:

You could simply install shades to be drawn when you want your privacy along the stair cases, which some people might do anyhow in a full unit.

Many suburban apartment complexes are all stick construction without concrete floors between levels, what would they use for a fire rated separation?  Like a fire-rated sheetrock?

There again, let's say she's into the bank for $5 mil or so, so renting out 24 units at around $1500 apiece still might not cover her debt service.

I always love speculating on someone else's property! 

[Bamboo World]

Not stalking your post, but I happened to be editing my previous reply while you were quoting it and posting this:

Many suburban apartment complexes are all stick construction without concrete floors between levels, what would they use for a fire rated separation?  Like a fire-rated sheetrock?

Yes.

[Conan71]

Not stalking your post, but I happened to be editing my previous reply while you were quoting it and posting this:

Yes.

Most definitely stalking your post, so basically, use fire-rated sheetrock and technically you could sub-divide the floor plates?

[heironymouspasparagus]

I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 

You, CF, and DTowner all seem to like that design - 3 out of 4 likes!  That's why we have such variety across the board for housing.  The reasons you all seem to like are the parts of it that I do like.  Yours is as a temporary vacation visitation place - one of these in St. Thomas, another in Belize, and I would be a happy camper!  Use it a couple months a year, then rent it out the rest of the time!  Others like the view, the separation between private areas and more public areas, etc.  Also, there is the 'new and exciting' component - it is something new for Tulsa area.

And CF wants LCD windows!  So do I...!!
https://www.glass-apps.com/


My dislike stems from some of those same features for long term use as in permanent full time dwelling.  First, all the different levels.  With optional elevator, it would very much better.  Convenience to me means keeping the separation of areas, while maintaining quick and easy access to all the areas - 10 steps (or less) puts me into another zone.  Stairways don't make for "quick and easy"....   Cleaning/maintenance requires either duplicate infrastructure on each floor or hauling stuff from floor to floor...vacuum, mop, etc.  I know - hire a maid, but it would be kind of tacky to make him/her do all that.  And the huge waste of conditioned, property taxed space just for stairways!!  5' wide, by about 15' length per stairway!  And elevator!  Talking several hundred square feet out of the 3,400.

There are comments about fire blocking - can use the sheet rock - 5/8" is a commercial fire rating thickness.  Another thing that is tremendous, and while it adds some to cost, it is VERY cost effective for what you gain in fire protection, soundproofing, and insulation value.  Roxul brand name.  Rockwool.  Made from basalt and metal slag.  Using proper installation methods, can get fire ratings between floors of 1.5 hours and more fairly easily.  Except for the stairways.  Maybe use a fire door and a stairwell configuration...?  Takes away from the open plan.



The finishes are very nice.  Love the light wood floors.  Would probably want the ceilings to be higher - 9 ft minimum!  10 ft better!! I have already planned to implement some of the ideas they use going forward - will be putting sprinklers into my house - exceptional idea that should be required by code for residential.   

The kitchen needs more storage!!

[Bamboo World]

Most definitely stalking your post, so basically, use fire-rated sheetrock and technically you could sub-divide the floor plates?

It probably could be done, but probably wouldn't be worth the effort and expense, given everything that's already in place.  

There are various fire-resistance ratings for different types of wall, floor, and ceiling assemblies.  The City has adopted the International Building Code (IBC) with modifications.  Without going through the IBC, I think anything more than a single-family residence (because it's four stories tall) will be problematic.  With three-story units, the code requirements wouldn't be as strict.  But the Urban 8 development is four stories.

Using an online loan payment calculator, I plugged in $5 million at 3.5% for 30 years.  The calculator says the payment would be $22,453.23 per month.  $22,453.23 divided by eight units is $2,800 per month for each unit (about 82 cents per square foot per month, based on a $625,000 average loan per unit).  

If four people shared a unit, then the "rent" per person would be $700 per month, just to cover debt service as described above.  I don't think it would take much effort to create four bedrooms in each unit, if everyone wanted his or her own bedroom.  Or, a couple could share the master suite:
     

Three options are shown for the third floor build-out, on Urban 8's website.  The plumbing waste and vent lines might be in place already.  If so, I'd leave most or all of the piping as it is, and customize the floor plan to create three or four bedrooms and three bathrooms.

The penthouse could be used as another makeshift "bedroom" by a single person or a couple:
 

That would lower the average monthly "rent" per person to $560 or $467.  The four to six occupants would have to work out the parking situation.

Yvonne might not be able to find people willing to purchase right now, but she might be willing to find some willing to lease.
   

[Red Arrow]

I don't know Yvonne and wish her no ill will but.....

I do have smile a bit that there is apparently a limit that people will pay for a place to live.

[Red Arrow]

I always love speculating on someone else's property! 

It's even more fun using someone else's money.