The Truck Yard

[Breadburner]

I dont think that's an ideal spot especially buiseness wise...

[rdj]

Tulsa is about seven years behind on food trucks and food truck "parks".  Had some of the best tacos ever at the a food truck spot in Austin on south Congress in mid-00's.

I agree this is a bad location, not terrible but not the best and highest use.  BUT, if it is part of a larger master plan that includes other commercial space and entertainment venues then I could be swayed.  Too bad there isn't #waterintheriver otherwise we'd see development like this along the banks.

As far as Conan's comments on sales tax being the ED departments meth, they have no choice.  It's their only source of income for operating funds.  If your company could only pay its employees from one product or one customer you'd whore yourself out as well.  This has to change and it has to change at the state level.

[PonderInc]

There are some very successful food truck locations in Austin that are little more than gravel, trees and benches.  They are quirky and "Austiny" and people eat there. But I'm not going to go out of my way to find one.

In downtown Portland, they did something smarter.  Food trucks started renting parking spaces in a surface parking lot downtown... and setting up shop.  They basically created a street wall along one side of a surface lot, which creates a very nice, inviting place to walk and grab breakfast / lunch / dinner.  At first, the city didn't like it, but they quickly realized the value--and how this created a vital connection across a city block, instead of a dead urban space (surface parking).  The city ran electricity, so each truck can just plug in and nobody has to listen to the stupid generators that most food trucks rely on.



The food trucks offer affordable, diverse choices for people throughout the day.  They act as restaurant "incubators"; many people get established with a food truck and then move on to a brick and mortar restaurant.  Downtown Portland gets another vital city block, instead of dead space. And the city gets sales taxes from a prime chunk of land that was previously just parking for cars.

The vendors decorate their trucks and they are semi-permanent.  They don't drive around.

It doesn't seem to affect restaurant business negatively.  It's a different thing.  If you want to grab a burrito or a falafel and sit in the park, you go to the food trucks.  If you want to sit down in a restaurant and get full service, you do that. Also, they fill a gap in a neighborhood that doesn't have as many restaurants as some.

It's very cool, and creates a lively, nice option.  Tulsa could do this.

[Conan71]

Tulsa is about seven years behind on food trucks and food truck "parks".  Had some of the best tacos ever at the a food truck spot in Austin on south Congress in mid-00's.

I agree this is a bad location, not terrible but not the best and highest use.  BUT, if it is part of a larger master plan that includes other commercial space and entertainment venues then I could be swayed.  Too bad there isn't #waterintheriver otherwise we'd see development like this along the banks.

As far as Conan's comments on sales tax being the ED departments meth, they have no choice.  It's their only source of income for operating funds.  If your company could only pay its employees from one product or one customer you'd whore yourself out as well.  This has to change and it has to change at the state level.

Agreed.  Clay spoke about this at the meeting the other night and said Oklahoma is the only state now in which cities derive most of their operating budgets from sales tax collections. 

Still, that doesn't justify selling out prime pieces of land which are used for recreation and being a place to unplug without being surrounded by commercial enterprises.  Next on the block is the area around the skate park on the west side.  Let's focus on redeveloping abandoned and dilapidated areas before we start chopping away at land in prime recreation areas which are some of Tulsa's best assets.  That's speaking to the entire Riverparks system not just TMUWA.

I had a discussion at breakfast this morning with a councilor who said there's not even any consideration of the real monetary value of the land, that some of the deals the city envisions are like $1 leases.  If we are going to do that, let's give more weight to locally-based RFPs so that the bulk of the profit, in addition to sales tax, stays in the city.

As to changing the tax and budget system, here's why I don't see the Oklahoma legislature getting on board: change the base around to income or property based, it will be viewed as a tax increase.  We can't have tax increases because that's un-'murcan.

[BuiltRight]

I just don't understand the location, why is the city trying to give away prime land to something that doesn't even fit into the vibe of the area. Can you imagine Oktoberfest butting up against the rusted truck beds and old windmills? I cant.

When I looked at their website http://texastruckyard.com/ the look and feel would fit in so much better in The Pearl District along Route 66. There are so many underutilized lots there and the area already has a food truck culture with Lola's and Soul Studio's food truck events.

[hello]

I just don't understand the location, why is the city trying to give away prime land to something that doesn't even fit into the vibe of the area. Can you imagine Oktoberfest butting up against the rusted truck beds and old windmills? I cant.

When I looked at their website http://texastruckyard.com/ the look and feel would fit in so much better in The Pearl District along Route 66. There are so many underutilized lots there and the area already has a food truck culture with Lola's and Soul Studio's food truck events.

Something like this would do really well in Tulsa, and the Pearl would be perfect. The West side of the river...not so much.

[patric]

the look and feel would fit in so much better in The Pearl District along Route 66. There are so many underutilized lots there and the area already has a food truck culture with Lola's and Soul Studio's food truck events.

That sounds a lot more palatable...


/pun

[rdj]

Agreed.  Clay spoke about this at the meeting the other night and said Oklahoma is the only state now in which cities derive most of their operating budgets from sales tax collections. 

Still, that doesn't justify selling out prime pieces of land which are used for recreation and being a place to unplug without being surrounded by commercial enterprises.  Next on the block is the area around the skate park on the west side.  Let's focus on redeveloping abandoned and dilapidated areas before we start chopping away at land in prime recreation areas which are some of Tulsa's best assets.  That's speaking to the entire Riverparks system not just TMUWA.

I had a discussion at breakfast this morning with a councilor who said there's not even any consideration of the real monetary value of the land, that some of the deals the city envisions are like $1 leases.  If we are going to do that, let's give more weight to locally-based RFPs so that the bulk of the profit, in addition to sales tax, stays in the city.

As to changing the tax and budget system, here's why I don't see the Oklahoma legislature getting on board: change the base around to income or property based, it will be viewed as a tax increase.  We can't have tax increases because that's un-'murcan.

Desperate people do desperate things.  They are desperate for revenue to fund basic services.  They are trying to sell the highest and best in the hope that the development will trickle down to the hard develop stuff.  I'd rather it be the other way around.  If you're going to help the private sector, do it by making the hard projects easier to do.  BUT, for some of these retailers doing any deal in a city with Tulsa's demographics is tough regardless of the location within the city.

[Conan71]

Desperate people do desperate things.  They are desperate for revenue to fund basic services.  They are trying to sell the highest and best in the hope that the development will trickle down to the hard develop stuff.  I'd rather it be the other way around.  If you're going to help the private sector, do it by making the hard projects easier to do.  BUT, for some of these retailers doing any deal in a city with Tulsa's demographics is tough regardless of the location within the city.

I have mixed emotions about this new discretionary $2 mil the city can tap at will to attract new retailers like Costco.  Can we not develop a similar program to incubate innovative local entrepreneurs who have great ideas which are only lacking the money to get the project on the ground?  $2 mil can go a long way depending on the concept and development costs.  Come up with criteria which would only reward sound business plans, but which would not be so restrictive to ignore some really innovative thinking.

I understand Costco has the ability to generate far more sales tax than most local small retail.  But imagine if Sam Walton had called Tulsa home when he opened his first five and dime.  What if Michael Dell or Bill Gates had been Tulsans (yes I know not retail level)?  It's okay to chase national retailers, I just don't want that done at the loss of potential home runs from innovative minds which could be incubated in Tulsa if those minds had adequate funding to make that dream come true.

If Tulsa makes economic sense for Costco with a $2 mil incentive, it should make just as much sense without.  Are we chasing the prestige of saying we have Trader Joe's or Costco or are we really achieving enough net tax benefit from these national level developments to increase city services?  I think we need to watch much closer now every time the city says we need a new fee or incremental sales tax increase for more fire and police protection or to fund other city operations or every time they say we have to cut fire or police academy classes.  If they keep tacking on more fees to utility bills and permits or keep asking for sales tax increases that means sales taxes are not generating enough revenue even with all the new retail density we've attracted in the last 10 years.

What can I say?  I'm a home team guy.  I've worked for a Fortune 500 company and I've worked for local upstarts and local companies which have been a part of Tulsa's community for over half a century.  I prefer my life with the old Tulsa-based small business.

And there's the rub: We need to improve our demographics by keeping and retaining the 25-34 YPs.  We need more sales tax revenue too.  

Do 25-34 YPs want a more built up food truck court at the boathouse/amphitheater?  Do they want REI instead of volleyball courts?  Do they want to buy a lower price point coach handbag then put on their new Nikes and go for a run on the adjacent urban wilderness?  Do they want a walkable lifestyle with a cool loft downtown or a 3000 ft. house in Jenks or Bixby? Those are important things to consider.

And actually, I will get a chance to find out next month.  Our coalition was extended an invitation today to give a presentation at their April 21 meeting, I will be presenting it.  I'm truly interested to hear all viewpoints.  I want our city to do what we can to attract and retain our future leaders and visionaries instead of losing them to places like Austin, Denver, Portland, or wherever.  They last thing we need is a few more generations of Dewey's running our city, so I do value attracting and retaining the best visionaries.  If they want retail built up to the riverbanks, I have to remember what I value may be of no value to anyone else.  

I'm a 50'ish MAP not a YP, but I figure my wife and I don't do a very good job acting our age.  Honestly, a lot of my social viewpoints and ideas about development and what makes a city a great place to live have evolved in the last decade of my life.  I like to think I have the same values as that age group but realize my perspective and priorities might be somewhat different.

I have kids in or close to that demographic and I'm around YP's quite a bit.   I feel like I know their pulse, but this will be interesting to get some feedback.

[heironymouspasparagus]

What in the F'ing F is that?

Isn't that the back patio of the hot dog place at 59th and Mingo....?      lol...

[rdj]

Conan, you bring up great points.  I think there is a creative class that wants all the things you are pushing for.  I also believe there is a group of "YP's" (as an aside I hate that term) that are drawn to an area with the national retailers and more of a suburban lifestyle.  It is also a yin & yang, you need workforce but you also need jobs.  The people making the jobs decision (relocation that is) are very drawn to national chains.  Real estate firms working to bring employers to Tulsa don't lead their pitch with all the great local stuff, they lead with the items that make the pale, male and stale businessman and his wife comfortable.  That would be the national chains.

It is a tough, vicious, cycle that middle tier cities like Tulsa are stuck in.  I fear we will continue to see consolidation and flight into the larger metros and cities. I foresee a day when OKC is a part of the DFW trade area.  I could see high speed rail linking OKC and Dallas happening over OKC to Tulsa.

[Bones013]

I think this would look better on the river: http://www.thrillist.com/drink/san-francisco/the-yard-shipping-container-bar-san-francisco

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I think this would look better on the river: http://www.thrillist.com/drink/san-francisco/the-yard-shipping-container-bar-san-francisco

This is being done in a densely populated area. This is in China Basin which used to be shipping docks and they started the rehab of this area in the mid to late 90's.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.774478,-122.390274,3a,75y,358.71h,88.01t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sco0Zi5kf_W8BC6_zy4ArMA!2e0?hl=en

[ZYX]

Conan, you bring up great points.  I think there is a creative class that wants all the things you are pushing for.  I also believe there is a group of "YP's" (as an aside I hate that term) that are drawn to an area with the national retailers and more of a suburban lifestyle.  It is also a yin & yang, you need workforce but you also need jobs.  The people making the jobs decision (relocation that is) are very drawn to national chains.  Real estate firms working to bring employers to Tulsa don't lead their pitch with all the great local stuff, they lead with the items that make the pale, male and stale businessman and his wife comfortable.  That would be the national chains.

It is a tough, vicious, cycle that middle tier cities like Tulsa are stuck in.  I fear we will continue to see consolidation and flight into the larger metros and cities. I foresee a day when OKC is a part of the DFW trade area.  I could see high speed rail linking OKC and Dallas happening over OKC to Tulsa.

I agree. There are a whole lot of people that age group that are moving into new developments in Bixby, Jenks, BA, etc. I would argue that there are probably more people age 25-34 around here that prefer a suburban lifestyle than an urban one. However, as William has pointed out many times before, we offer almost nothing for the group who does want a nice, walkable inner city. We lose them to other cities. Also, there are a lot of people that prefer to live in the suburbs, but enjoy going downtown on a regular basis.  These people also want a better, more vibrant inner city.

This is completely off topic, but I think Tulsa would experience significant growth if TPS could be improved that it is no longer viewed as "sketchy," or incapable of matching the perceived quality of suburban districts. I personally know of several young families that would like to live in midtown but won't send their kids to TPS, and can't afford private school.

As far as this development goes, I don't think it makes any sense in the proposed location.

[Dspike]

"And there's the rub: We need to improve our demographics by keeping and retaining the 25-34 YPs.  We need more sales tax revenue too.  

Do 25-34 YPs want a more built up food truck court at the boathouse/amphitheater?  Do they want REI instead of volleyball courts?  Do they want to buy a lower price point coach handbag then put on their new Nikes and go for a run on the adjacent urban wilderness?  Do they want a walkable lifestyle with a cool loft downtown or a 3000 ft. house in Jenks or Bixby? Those are important things to consider."

Glad you can join us for the April meeting. Hope the whole issue hasn't already been resolved by then.