2nd & Greenwood

[rebound]

What troll? I was down there in early afternoon and was not impressed. Barely any life, save the unfortunate homeless people.

Go to south Tulsa, and even where I live, and people are everywhere.

Where exactly were you?  Obviously things vary day to day, but I'm up in the East Village area on a regular basis and there always seem to be a lot of people around.   It does seem to start about 2:00 though, so if you were there before that it could have been sparse.   I'm now getting my hair cut in the box yard, and am working it out so that I do that mid-afternoon and then can hang out and finish emails on my laptop and have a beer or two on the deck upstairs. (Or inside at WinWar if it's too windy or hot)  There is a great view from the deck, and I am always amazed at how many people I see walking around. 

Also, just for something different this Saturday morning I jogged up that direction instead of heading down the trails.   I ran 3rd st all across town, from Hodges Bend on the East End all the way over to Cox Center and then back South on Houston.  I have to say, I was amazed at the lack of homeless.  Of course, there were some around the bus station area and the random one here or there, but far fewer than I expected to encounter.  And none of them came anywhere close to messing with me.     

[Gold]

Speaking from past experience, downtown is usually slow on Memorial day weekend.  People go to the lake, their buddy's pool, or out of town.

But to say that it's dead the rest of the time is without evidence or common sense.  I've been going down there all my life and can give you dozens of anecdotes and just plain hard evidence that it has really changed.  For the most part, if I'm going downtown, I take Lyft on Friday or Saturday night because I don't want to deal with parking (or the DUI checkpoints).  I grew up being able to park next to Cain's for shows, but now I need a strategy if I'm driving (and that strategy keeps evolving).  There used to be no bars, then there was Caz's and Snooty Fox, and then later Arnie's.  Eventually, McNellie's opened and that changed everything.  14 years after McNellie's opened, EVERYTHING is different.  There is no other area of the city with more nightlife than downtown.

[joiei]

Following Guido is getting to be almost as much fun as following Saurkraut when he is in town

[guido911]

Where exactly were you?  Obviously things vary day to day, but I'm up in the East Village area on a regular basis and there always seem to be a lot of people around.   It does seem to start about 2:00 though, so if you were there before that it could have been sparse.   I'm now getting my hair cut in the box yard, and am working it out so that I do that mid-afternoon and then can hang out and finish emails on my laptop and have a beer or two on the deck upstairs. (Or inside at WinWar if it's too windy or hot)  There is a great view from the deck, and I am always amazed at how many people I see walking around. 

Also, just for something different this Saturday morning I jogged up that direction instead of heading down the trails.   I ran 3rd st all across town, from Hodges Bend on the East End all the way over to Cox Center and then back South on Houston.  I have to say, I was amazed at the lack of homeless.  Of course, there were some around the bus station area and the random one here or there, but far fewer than I expected to encounter.  And none of them came anywhere close to messing with me.     

All over downtown. Had business to attend to and just marveled at what all the attention Tulsa has given to one part of the city and its return.

I am zero fan of developing a downtown for the sake of doing so. Especially this downtown, save the deco and other historical buildings. And we must address the homeless situation, because those souls are the ones using downtown apparently to its full potential.

[guido911]

Speaking from past experience, downtown is usually slow on Memorial day weekend.  People go to the lake, their buddy's pool, or out of town.

But to say that it's dead the rest of the time is without evidence or common sense.  I've been going down there all my life and can give you dozens of anecdotes and just plain hard evidence that it has really changed.  For the most part, if I'm going downtown, I take Lyft on Friday or Saturday night because I don't want to deal with parking (or the DUI checkpoints).  I grew up being able to park next to Cain's for shows, but now I need a strategy if I'm driving (and that strategy keeps evolving).  There used to be no bars, then there was Caz's and Snooty Fox, and then later Arnie's.  Eventually, McNellie's opened and that changed everything.  14 years after McNellie's opened, EVERYTHING is different.  There is no other area of the city with more nightlife than downtown.

I do not dispute that if you want to get drunk and act stupid, there are plenty of places to go downtown for that. I just do not see why Tulsa had to spend millions and millions of tax dollars to develop that environment. That's it. And "nightlife" runs roughly 8-2. There are 18 hours of the day to fill, and apparently people are more interested in spending that time out where I live. Where Tulsa (or the county) has not invested millions to prop up. Why is that?

[rebound]

I do not dispute that if you want to get drunk and act stupid, there are plenty of places to go downtown for that. I just do not see why Tulsa had to spend millions and millions of tax dollars to develop that environment. That's it. And "nightlife" runs roughly 8-2. There are 18 hours of the day to fill, and apparently people are more interested in spending that time out where I live. Where Tulsa (or the county) has not invested millions to prop up. Why is that?

Oh come on man, I think you understand it well enough.  You obviously don't like it, and that's cool, but I think underneath it all you do understand it.  It's not like Tulsa is unique (as has been pointed out on this forum for years),  this re-investment in downtown is going on all over the country.  The threads are all there to read, and a quick internet search will yield even more results.  Every major (and a lot of minor) cities in our general neighborhood (OKC, Dallas, Ft Worth, Little Rock, KC, etc...) have done the same kind of investment, and most are far ahead of us in doing so.  "OKC" is not Yukon, or Edmond, or Moore, and they have invested accordingly.  Tulsa is not Broken Arrow, Jenks, or Owasso, and we must invest likewise, or we wither in comparison.

Oh, and I'm with you on the homeless situation, it is an issue. But it can be managed, and as I noted in my previous post it isn't really all that bad now, save for a couple of small areas.

[guido911]

Oh, and I'm with you on the homeless situation, it is an issue. But it can be managed, and as I noted in my previous post it isn't really all that bad now, save for a couple of small areas.

Was up close and personal with this over the weekend. It is not being managed. It is maddening, shameful, and disgraceful.

[Conan71]

I do not dispute that if you want to get drunk and act stupid, there are plenty of places to go downtown for that. I just do not see why Tulsa had to spend millions and millions of tax dollars to develop that environment. That's it. And "nightlife" runs roughly 8-2. There are 18 hours of the day to fill, and apparently people are more interested in spending that time out where I live. Where Tulsa (or the county) has not invested millions to prop up. Why is that?

And the COT didn't spend millions and millions in infrastructure to support suburban development?  Who do you think paid for all the streets, water/sewer, right of ways, etc. to make all that happen?  The widening and improvements on Memorial and all the other arterials in your area weren't funded by private developers or donations.  Are you aware the COT gave Costco a $2mm golden handshake when Costco likely would have built in the Tulsa area regardless?  How much is Tulsa giving away to the developer of the center where REI is trying to locate?  Other than the BOK Center, I'm not aware of any vast fortunes spent on new downtown infrastructure other than in places with established TIF districts.  You need to spend more time on the development topics to learn a little better about how much Tulsa has spent on propping up suburban lifestyles over the last 60 years.

[Conan71]

Was up close and personal with this over the weekend. It is not being managed. It is maddening, shameful, and disgraceful.

I do find this interesting:  I consider that I spent a good deal of time downtown from the time I was a child until we moved away in March.  I went to Trinity Episcopal (Iron Gate) and have had dealings with the Day Center, John 3:16, and other downtown entities who work with the homeless.  I've officed downtown, I've lived downtown, done a lot of business downtown, attended and helped promote countless festivals yet I never considered that it is a huge issue. 

I've never really considered that Tulsa has a worse homeless issue downtown than anywhere else.  I've felt more threatened by panhandlers at QT's on 11th St. and 31st & Sheridan than I ever did downtown.

Perhaps people who spend more time in an area simply don't notice or are used to it as a part of the fabric so we are not as in tune or sensitive to it perhaps blissful ignorance is a good term.  Perhaps you have not spent near as much time as myself downtown and that is why homeless people stand out more to you.

I'm not bagging on your perception or saying one is superior than the other.  I'm simply making a point that I don't think of Tulsa has having a "bad" homeless problem.  There are multiple agencies addressing the issue and there are countless anecdotal stories of people leaving the streets and getting back on their feet.

There is not much you can do to "manage" homelessness.  Our system no longer allows us to incarcerate certain of us in the population who might be better off in a state mental hospital than on the streets.  Please explain how Tulsa could manage its homeless situation if it is something you feel can be managed.  I've always been of the belief that for every person you get off the streets there's another heading there.  We can throw out all sorts of platitudes like we need better education, drug intervention, mental health services, etc. but those all do exist in Tulsa and are nothing but hypotheticals to someone who is living life on the street.

[guido911]

And the COT didn't spend millions and millions in infrastructure to support suburban development?  Who do you think paid for all the streets, water/sewer, right of ways, etc. to make all that happen?  The widening and improvements on Memorial and all the other arterials in your area weren't funded by private developers or donations.  Are you aware the COT gave Costco a $2mm golden handshake when Costco likely would have built in the Tulsa area regardless?  Other than the BOK Center, I'm not aware of any vast fortunes spent on new downtown infrastructure other than in places with established TIF districts.  You need to spend more time on the development topics to learn a little better about how much Tulsa has spent on propping up suburban lifestyles over the last 60 years.

And you miss my ultimate point, and inadvertently proved another. I don't want any of that crap near me. But it went in anyway because that is what "the people" wanted. And that's where they are spending the boatloads of cash on stuff other than drinking beer and some nightlife.

Believe me, I would love for all this crap that turned what was a quiet part of the area into freakin Woodland Hills corridor to not exist. But here it is.

[guido911]

I do find this interesting:  I consider that I spent a good deal of time downtown from the time I was a child until we moved away in March.  I went to Trinity Episcopal (Iron Gate) and have had dealings with the Day Center, John 3:16, and other downtown entities who work with the homeless.  I've officed downtown, I've lived downtown, done a lot of business downtown, attended and helped promote countless festivals yet I never considered that it is a huge issue. 

I've never really considered that Tulsa has a worse homeless issue downtown than anywhere else.  I've felt more threatened by panhandlers at QT's on 11th St. and 31st & Sheridan than I ever did downtown.

Perhaps people who spend more time in an area simply don't notice or are used to it as a part of the fabric so we are not as in tune or sensitive to it perhaps blissful ignorance is a good term.  Perhaps you have not spent near as much time as myself downtown and that is why homeless people stand out more to you.

I'm not bagging on your perception or saying one is superior than the other.  I'm simply making a point that I don't think of Tulsa has having a "bad" homeless problem.  There are multiple agencies addressing the issue and there are countless anecdotal stories of people leaving the streets and getting back on their feet.

There is not much you can do to "manage" homelessness.  Our system no longer allows us to incarcerate certain of us in the population who might be better off in a state mental hospital than on the streets.  Please explain how Tulsa could manage its homeless situation if it is something you feel can be managed.  I've always been of the belief that for every person you get off the streets there's another heading there.  We can throw out all sorts of platitudes like we need better education, drug intervention, mental health services, etc. but those all do exist in Tulsa and are nothing but hypotheticals to someone who is living life on the street.

Homelessness is a huge deal with me. It may be worse elsewhere, but that does not make me feel any better. And it's not about the threat they pose, it's about failure, human misery and inability to problem solve. And homelessness is f*cking Exhibit A as to why giving money to government via taxes does not fix this thing. 

[Conan71]

Homelessness is a huge deal with me. It may be worse elsewhere, but that does not make me feel any better. And it's not about the threat they pose, it's about failure, human misery and inability to problem solve. And homelessness is f*cking Exhibit A as to why giving money to government via taxes does not fix this thing. 

Some of those wandering around might be living at the Day Center, Salvation Army, or John 3:16.  I mean they aren't lockdown facilities.  It probably doesn't help things that the jail is in that general area and some people fresh out of jail have nowhere else to go than wandering downtown.

I'll agree the system fails some people but for others, homelessness does boil down to a choice.  There are programs to get clean, get a job, get a roof overhead.  Once someone chooses to go back out and use, they are back to square one.  Addiction is a disease but it is also involves a choice to keep feeding it or not.

And not every homeless person is miserable.  We've had welders and day laborers working for us who felt like they were most free when they camped down by the I-44 bridge on the Arkansas River for weeks or months on end. 

[guido911]

And not every homeless person is miserable.  We've had welders and day laborers working for us who felt like they were most free when they camped down by the I-44 bridge on the Arkansas River for weeks or months on end. 

The case for homelessness?

[rebound]

Some of those wandering around might be living at the Day Center, Salvation Army, or John 3:16.  I mean they aren't lockdown facilities.  It probably doesn't help things that the jail is in that general area and some people fresh out of jail have nowhere else to go than wandering downtown.

I'll agree the system fails some people but for others, homelessness does boil down to a choice.  There are programs to get clean, get a job, get a roof overhead.  Once someone chooses to go back out and use, they are back to square one.  Addiction is a disease but it is also involves a choice to keep feeding it or not.

And not every homeless person is miserable.  We've had welders and day laborers working for us who felt like they were most free when they camped down by the I-44 bridge on the Arkansas River for weeks or months on end. 

We overlap on most things, but I think you and I diverge a some on this particular topic.   I do think we can manage the homeless issue, and we have every right to demand certain behavior.   This does not mean that I am against spending money on programs etc.  Quite the contrary, I think we need to spend more. But, as part of that attention and spending, we can and should demand and enforce certain behaviors.   For example, I do not want people camped out down by the river.  (In a van, or otherwise...)  Nor do I want them sleeping under the bridge by the bike trails, or on the picnic tables near Elwood's.  I don't want them pushing shopping carts down the street, or begging on street corners.   

Provide the infrastructure, give them options for help.  It's then their choice.  While we can't force people to always behave the way we would like, we can tell them follow our rules, or go somewhere else. 

[Conan71]

We overlap on most things, but I think you and I diverge a some on this particular topic.   I do think we can manage the homeless issue, and we have every right to demand certain behavior.   This does not mean that I am against spending money on programs etc.  Quite the contrary, I think we need to spend more. But, as part of that attention and spending, we can and should demand and enforce certain behaviors.   For example, I do not want people camped out down by the river.  (In a van, or otherwise...)  Nor do I want them sleeping under the bridge by the bike trails, or on the picnic tables near Elwood's.  I don't want them pushing shopping carts down the street, or begging on street corners.  

Provide the infrastructure, give them options for help.  It's then their choice.  While we can't force people to always behave the way we would like, we can tell them follow our rules, or go somewhere else.  

I hope I'm not being misunderstood as advocating for homelessness.  Reading your post, you and I are more in agreement on this issue than not.

JMO, we have as good an infrastructure as any city to serve the homeless through various non-profit entities.  It is simply a matter of individuals choosing to utilize those resources for their benefit and improvement rather than sustaining a status quo.

How do we define homelessness?  There are people who have a job or jobs but don't own a home and don't have an apartment, who couch surf at friends and relatives or alternate with sleeping in their car or when they are flush getting a room in a flop house motel out by the Turnpike gate.  That's an example of homelessness.  But they are not loitering and getting into the conscience of most of us, therefore we don't think of them as homeless.  I'd be willing to bet there are people on a fixed income who live in a low income apartment around downtown who wander downtown daily screaming crazy sh!t, panhandling, and they dress like a hobo.  Yet they have a fixed place to live so they really don't meet the definition of homeless.  I'm willing to bet we've all been panhandled by multiple people who have a steady place to live, yet the first thought I know I have is "They must be homeless".

Now we get to the point of how do you strengthen and enforce loitering and panhandling laws?  That seems to be the real issue people are associating with homelessness.  Not everyone standing in line at Iron Gate is homeless just as not everyone who has a job has a home.

The last thing we want to do is increase the jail population.  Do we pay for bus tickets out of town for those not choosing to follow loitering and panhandling laws?  I do believe there are curfews on city parks and parks run by RPA, but again it's an enforcement issue.  How much money are we willing to spend on LEO's to enforce loitering and panhandling when they don't even respond to most property crimes nowadays.  

Going down the list of entities serving the low income and homeless populations in Tulsa, the last thing Tulsa suffers from when it comes to the homeless issue is outreach, in my opinion.

Is the issue that we aren't controlling the homeless population very well or that our outreach is not the right sort of outreach?

Of course now we've drifted way off course from the discussion of 2nd & Greenwood but this is TNF after all.