Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris

[swake]

The family has been contacted by what we all see as race baiters in our society. They were told they were not welcome here and that this was not about race. This is about a man, a felon yes, committing yet again another crime when we had all hoped he was on the correct path, and a deputy that killed him. Color has nothing at all to do with it. The facts around the deputy and the TCSO is what is under suspicion. Let me also say that this family came together to pray for this deputy and his family and friends during this time, they know this is terrible for everyone involved.

I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.

[Conan71]

I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.

Point taken, but let's all consider we've all said and done things under the influence of adrenaline we later regret.  Do keep in mind Harris was face down at the time and in the confusion I suspect no one was for certain if he had a weapon on him or not.  What if he says: "Let me up, I can't breathe" and he starts firing or slashing once he's let up?  This was a weapons sting after all so I would imagine all deputies involved already had a heightened sense of angst going into this.

At very least as a result of this incident, the TCSD needs to review not only their protocol regarding reserve deputies but they need to treat every gunshot wound as if it is life-threatening and get EMSA on it's way immediately and not dilly dally around because Harris' wound seemed to have cauterized. 

[Vashta Nerada]

I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.

The #fuckyourbreath deputies were undercover just like Bates, but Bates is the only one TCSO threw inder the bus.  They were all involved in the same homicide... being "undercover" shouldnt be an automatic free pass.

[swake]

Point taken, but let's all consider we've all said and done things under the influence of adrenaline we later regret.  Do keep in mind Harris was face down at the time and in the confusion I suspect no one was for certain if he had a weapon on him or not.  What if he says: "Let me up, I can't breathe" and he starts firing or slashing once he's let up?  This was a weapons sting after all so I would imagine all deputies involved already had a heightened sense of angst going into this.

At very least as a result of this incident, the TCSD needs to review not only their protocol regarding reserve deputies but they need to treat every gunshot wound as if it is life-threatening and get EMSA on it's way immediately and not dilly dally around because Harris' wound seemed to have cauterized.  

We all have said things we regret, but I doubt you have disrespected someone's very right to live and then backed that up with callous actions that probably contributed to or least hastened that person's death. I would be very interested to see if his life could have been saved with more prompt life saving measures.  The problem is that too many cops don't see the public as people anymore.

[davideinstein]

I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.

[davideinstein]

The #fuckyourbreath deputies were undercover just like Bates, but Bates is the only one TCSO threw inder the bus.  They were all involved in the same homicide... being "undercover" shouldnt be an automatic free pass.

I'd look up the definition of homicide.

[Conan71]

We all have said things we regret, but I doubt you have disrespected someone's very right to live and then backed that up with callous actions that probably contributed to or least hastened that person's death. I would be very interested to see if his life could have been saved with more prompt life saving measures.  The problem is that too many cops don't see the public as people anymore.

You are right, Swake, I have not and hope to never be put in that position.  Regardless of Harris' past and his current transgressions, he had civil rights which appear to have been violated in this instance.  I don't presume my civil rights are any more or less sacrosanct than anyone else's. 

I have no intentions of ever putting myself in such a situation to figure out how I'd react in the same high adrenaline episode either.  I'm glad there are people willing to protect the public with scrutiny of LEO's increasing daily.   

Again, without having ever been in that situation myself, I'm not going to stand in judgement of how much regret those involved do or do not feel now. 

I applaud the Harris family's insistence that this was not racially-motivated, I've seen nothing which suggests it was.  I also don't believe there is a  national conspiracy to harm un-armed citizens either.  I do believe that the people protesting in downtown today are mistaking "justice" with "vengeance". Justice appears to be on track given the facts of this case, so why the protests?

[Vashta Nerada]

He does say taser, but it is extremely hard to hear. TCSD says he yelled it and the officers removed their hands from him right before he is shot. As you can see, that never happened.

As far as PCP, he was not on PCP. It's a made up story to make him super human fighting with police.

Medical records show Harris was in cardiac arrest when paramedics first got to him, and at the time TCSO says he "confessed to being on PCP."

[cannon_fodder]

I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.

I don't see most media outlets focusing on the race issue, even though recent history seems to indicate incidents such as this are about a billion times more likely to happen to black men. Other than a statistical link, I don't think anyone has played the race card.

And yes, the guy was a criminal. Every story mentions him being a felon who was selling a gun to undercover deputies. I knew the criminal background of the victim before I knew the background of the man who shot him. So, we are focusing on that.

But why? Other than making you feel better about our government killing another person, what does that prove? What relevance does it have?

It would be important if they had shot a man and argued it was perceived self defense. "I thought he was going for a gun - sorry." The fact that the man was known to have firearms would matter for sure in that discussion. But that isn't what we are talking about.

"Oh sh!t, in shot him. Sorry."

When you mistake a 357 revolver for a taser, you are a deadly threat to anyone who may be tased. Drunk people. Mentally handicapped people. People having an episode or on drugs. Protestors. Even college students who as rude questions to presidential candidates get Tased. And yes, people who run from the police for crimes large and small get Taxed. If he "accidentally" shoots any of them to death, it's the same crime.

If I murder a hooker or murder a priest, its the same crime. Who you perpatrate a crime against rarely matters.

Here is a fact that modern Americans too often don't get:
The rights of the "lowest" members of our society are the first to erode. Once you can establish that people society doesn't like have lesser rights, it is easy to erode all other rights. And even of that doesn't happen, if we can take away rights from some, all we have to do to take away your rights is to paint you as an undesirable.

"He was on PCP, committed a crime, and ran from police. We had no choice."

A similar line is very often given when a citizen is killed by the government, in this case it is a half lie - in many cases evidence shows it is a total lie. In all cases, the most extreme exercise of governmental power should be carefully examined by someone outside the group who did the killing.

[TulsaMoon]

I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.

The family has done everything they can to make sure this does not become a race issue, to the point of refusing the known media race baiters access to them and asking them to stay away from Tulsa.

It's obvious to me that you can't separate the fact that he was a criminal to the fact that he still had rights. That a reserve deputy at the age of 74 that had no business injecting himself into a situation that took his life. So far not one media story has been without the fact that he was a criminal, that he was there to sell a firearm, how much more focus do you need?

No one, including his family and friends have denied what he did. He still had the right to live.

One thing is for certain, no one can control the spin that some jack wagons are going to put on this. But as for the family, it is not about race.

[patric]

A similar line is very often given when a citizen is killed by the government, in this case it is a half lie - in many cases evidence shows it is a total lie. In all cases, the most extreme exercise of governmental power should be carefully examined by someone outside the group who did the killing.

Too many conflicts of interest would seem to eliminate the local DA in most cases, so who do you turn to for oversight, the feds?
The FBI logically seems the next in line, but as we saw in the other thread, they might be less than objective  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20996.0  so who does the public trust

and who is "Doing The Lord's work"  (at 2:02)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKZDfcCn_xc

UPDATED: 
  "The undersheriff called the regional director of the FBI and they're doing an investigation, here in Tulsa," Glanz said.
http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kfaq/news/BREAKING-Tulsa-Sheriff-Calls-for-FBI-to-Investigate-Shooting-Death-of-Suspect-299768361.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Medical records show Harris was in cardiac arrest when paramedics first got to him, and at the time TCSO says he "confessed to being on PCP."

Bullet through or near the heart will do that....give ya cardiac arrest...

[Conan71]

Bullet through or near the heart will do that....give ya cardiac arrest...

Pretty sure he died of lead poisoning.

[swake]

You are right, Swake, I have not and hope to never be put in that position.  Regardless of Harris' past and his current transgressions, he had civil rights which appear to have been violated in this instance.  I don't presume my civil rights are any more or less sacrosanct than anyone else's. 

I have no intentions of ever putting myself in such a situation to figure out how I'd react in the same high adrenaline episode either.  I'm glad there are people willing to protect the public with scrutiny of LEO's increasing daily.   

Again, without having ever been in that situation myself, I'm not going to stand in judgement of how much regret those involved do or do not feel now. 

Part of my thinking is that the police are trained to deal with those situations and are supposed to handle them well. If an officer can't do so, he's in the wrong job. While I don't think the cop that said "f**k your breath" committed any crime or anything, he shouldn't be a cop anymore.

[cynical]

Some of the discussion has focused on the fact that Bates was having an adrenaline attack, though it wasn't put exactly that way. Some of the discussion focused on the training needed to ensure that law officers (weren't they called "peace officers" once upon a time?) were mentally equipped to use appropriate force under the circumstances. I was going to reply to one of Conan's posts to the effect that we should all hope that any officer contemplating the use of deadly force was so rigorously trained that the decision was made without regard to the officers adrenaline count, but I thought about it and realized that we probably have a few thousand Tulsans exercising their concealed carry rights who have had nowhere near the amount of training Bates has had, so screw it.

Then I read the latest Tulsa World story about Bates training records being faked according to multiple unnamed sources. We already knew that some of his training records were somehow mislaid.

Those familiar with Section 1983 civil rights actions will recognize that the most common allegation in successful lawsuits against cities or counties arising from an act of a law officer is inadequate training. This situation is largely Bates' fault for failing to respect his own limits, but those who put him in the position to do this will also bear responsibility, especially if fraud by an elected official is shown.