Downtown Development Overview

[Conan71]

It's cheaper to go out because more than half of the games are on local/national TV.

How many games do you watch at once?

[davideinstein]

How many games do you watch at once?

Just Panthers as a priority for the Ticket.

/thread drift

Sorry guys, back to sports bars!

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

More economical apartments needed in downtown Tulsa, developer tells board
Y Lofts partner tells urban renewal board affordable downtown apartments are in demand

Affordability should be a driver for multifamily residential projects downtown, a developer told an urban renewal board Thursday.
Bob Jack is a partner in the Y Lofts, a $9 million conversion of the former downtown YMCA building into apartments by Brickhugger LLC.
During a Tulsa Development Authority meeting Thursday, Jack updated the progress of the Y Lofts, saying about 83 applications for its 79 units have been received and 15-20 leases have been signed.
The first residents are scheduled to move in the second or third week of January, he said.
The Y Lofts' price point, from about $1 to $1.40 per square foot, has kept sales brisk, Jack said.
"We're seeing the people that are in that $25,000, $35,000, 40,000 (annual) wage range," Jack said. "They can't afford a $1,000, $2,000 apartment. They are great apartments. They look great. But they are not affordable. That's the issue."
The lofts will range from 500 to 2,200 square feet, with some featuring living areas on two and three levels.
"All the other properties that John (Snyder) and I own are all filled, and they have waiting lists on them," Jack told the TDA. "If that (rent) number is low, they are going to get filled pretty fast. The absorption rate is going to be reflective of the price point."
Exiting, under-construction or planned residential units within the Inner Dispersal Loop (IDL) total 2,458, according to the Tulsa Regional Chamber.
A CBRE survey of downtown apartment buildings with 35 or more units indicated an average rent of $1,375 per month, according to a Tulsa World story published in March. That same survey showed that 94.5 percent of downtown apartments were occupied, compared to a 92 percent rate for apartments in the Tulsa area.
"(Developers) think they want to create glorious facilities that look really, really good, but the problem is it costs a lot of money to do that," Jack said during a phone interview Thursday. "And when it costs a lot of money, you have to run that rent up.
"You have to play to that group that's in that $20,000 to $40,000 salary range because that's what you need downtown to stock restaurants, clean buildings, do clerical. You need those people in your toolkit to be able to run businesses in downtown Tulsa. That's the group we're trying to attract."
Aaron Miller is a program officer with the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which has about 80 apartments in the Brady Arts District for teachers, artists and entrepreneurs.
"The first ones to go are always the smaller, less expensive units," he said in a phone interview. "That's where we see a dearth.
"The size of the units sometimes pushes the price up when really the demand might be geared more toward a smaller space. The neighborhood is the amenity. So if you can get people into the neighborhood, I believe you could house more people downtown.
"If people have the chance to live inside the IDL for right around $500 a month, that demand is there."
GKFF has worked with Teach For America teachers since 2009, helping them live in the Brady Arts District. Teachers who reside in downtown Tulsa stay beyond their two-year TFA commitment 66 percent of the time, compared to 44 percent for those living elsewhere in Tulsa, Miller said.
"We firmly believe that living in downtown Tulsa is helping keep talent in Tulsa," he said. "If you don't allow your young workforce the opportunity to have that quality-of-life experience, you're going to have a harder time keeping them. Our corporations could probably do more to get involved in the housing game."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/more-economical-apartments-needed-in-downtown-tulsa-developer-tells-board/article_cd280f3d-0d47-5ce0-802f-112dd61cdcce.html

[johrasephoenix]

It is really, really hard to build to those low price points even when land is very cheap.  In a lot of up and coming urban neighborhoods, the new stuff is expensive, the old stuff cheaper, and everyone can find a rent they like.  Downtown Tulsa, unfortunately tore down pretty much all of its old housing stock so all there is is new construction.  It makes it a lot harder to provide a diversity of rents. 

[saintnicster]

It is really, really hard to build to those low price points even when land is very cheap.  In a lot of up and coming urban neighborhoods, the new stuff is expensive, the old stuff cheaper, and everyone can find a rent they like.  Downtown Tulsa, unfortunately tore down pretty much all of its old housing stock so all there is is new construction.  It makes it a lot harder to provide a diversity of rents. 

$1/sq ft for rental wasn't that bad for me when I lived at GreenArch.  The fact that almost all of the units were in excess of 1000 square feet was the issue. They had a couple of units that were like 800sqft, but those went super quick.  It would have been nice so see them more-evenly divide the space up.

I would think that smaller units would encourage people to get out more, to enjoy the night life, etc.  Do you really need a single bedroom apt the size of some midtown houses?  Maybe something more along the lines of the Coliseum Apartments.

[johrasephoenix]

That's true.  I've lived in some shoebox apartments in my time and they were great.  Many young folks just need a place to sleep.  You get challenges with parking, etc if you boost the number of units but its definitely something apartment builders should be looking at.  The Coliseum is fully rented out and isn't even in the best location.  If you put something like that in the middle of the Brady or Blue Dome it would sell out instantly. 

I think downtown could also do with a lot more small/mid-sized apartment buildings.  Instead of whole city-block style developments like the Edge, take some of the vacant oddly shaped lots and slap in a 10 unit building or an 8 unit building.  A little 6 or 8 flat only requires as much land as a house. 

[Conan71]

I lived at Center Plaza Apartments before they became Central Park Condos.  My first unit was a studio in the south building.  I want to say it was about 400-500 sq. feet or so and with nothing more than my desk, dining table, hide-a-bed sofa, and TV/stereo stand was plenty big enough for me when I was 21.  It had ample closet space.  Rent at that time was $305/month in 1987.

Second apartment was same building one bedroom after I got married, about 700 ft. for I think $595 a month.  All things considered without running a COL index over the last 30 years I would guess that would have been somewhat close to paying $1 to $1.10/ft. in today's money.

You can probably broker a better deal with someone else's condo who is desperate for a renter in Central Park or Liberty Tower than you can with one of the apartments, but you aren't in the middle of downtown at that point.  Central Park is close to the Civic Center and court building if someone worked either place, but it's still a bit of an outlier with most of the other construction being much further east and north with the exception of Y Lofts.

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

I think downtown could also do with a lot more small/mid-sized apartment buildings.  Instead of whole city-block style developments like the Edge, take some of the vacant oddly shaped lots and slap in a 10 unit building or an 8 unit building.  A little 6 or 8 flat only requires as much land as a house. 

More of those in the residential neighborhoods of midtown would be nice, too. In many cities they have a mix of single family-detached homes and small apartment buildings that are tastefully done and nearly unnoticeable as they blend into the neighborhood.

Good examples from Swan Lake, Cherry Street, Washington, DC. What amazes me is that I don't see anything like that tucked in off to the sides of Brookside. It seems like the perfect place for small apartments creating a more gradual transition from the retail/entertainment to single homes. And you'd think it would do wonders for the foot traffic in the area.  

[Red Arrow]

I want to say it was about 400-500 sq. feet or so...   Rent at that time was $305/month in 1987.

Second apartment was same building one bedroom after I got married, about 700 ft. for I think $595 a month.  All things considered without running a COL index over the last 30 years I would guess that would have been somewhat close to paying $1 to $1.10/ft. in today's money.

Google "Inflation Calculator" to get this:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

$305 in 1987 is $649 now. Using 500 ft² you get $1.30/ft².

$595 in 1990 (You didn't say when you got married so I figured a few years was a good guess.) is $1100 now.  700 ft² would be $1.57/ft².

(It looks like the superscript function is not working.)

[johrasephoenix]

More of those in the residential neighborhoods of midtown would be nice, too. In many cities they have a mix of single family-detached homes and small apartment buildings that are tastefully done and nearly unnoticeable as they blend into the neighborhood.

Those are hands down my favorite neighborhoods in Tulsa.  It's a shame that a) little apartment complexes built later (say after WWII) blend in a lot less well, and b) NIMBY's don't allow that any more.  I imagine there would be a rebellion on your hands if you proposed a 10 unit little apartment complex in a wealthy neighborhood today.

Wasn't there something like that proposed on a vacant lot in Brady Heights a few years back and it got shot down because local NIMBYs didn't want "those people" living nearby?  

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

Wasn't there something like that proposed on a vacant lot in Brady Heights a few years back and it got shot down because local NIMBYs didn't want "those people" living nearby?  

This?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/residents-not-all-on-board-with-proposed-brady-heights-apartments/article_0424a455-db63-5855-9db9-e116dbbe85fd.html

[SXSW]

Anyone know what the new 2 story building at 4th & Boulder next to the Palace Building is for?  It looks like a new entrance and maybe has a rooftop deck? 

I'm glad to see this little parking lot gone but wish they could've saved the Goff building that was there before. 

[swake]

Anyone know what the new 2 story building at 4th & Boulder next to the Palace Building is for?  It looks like a new entrance and maybe has a rooftop deck? 

I'm glad to see this little parking lot gone but wish they could've saved the Goff building that was there before. 

It's parking and storage for the World

[cannon_fodder]

$1 a square foot rents for new construction is difficult to justify if someone is looking to make money -  maybe if you could ignore land costs, which we have recently seen at $50 a square by themselves.  But if new construction costs just $100 sq ft, a 30 year note just to cover the mortgage would be ~60 cents a square per month on a 30 year note (the per square is a weird metric, but it fits into this conversation).  20 cents per square would be a reasonable operating cost (less early in the buildings life, more later). 5 cents for taxes and assessment. 5 cents a square for management fees or broker fees. And 10 cents for vacancies (which run at 5% downtown, but your plan better not call for best case scenario).

Play with the numbers. Look up cost of construction and cost of land.  Think through some of the expenses.  It gets hard to do in neighborhoods that are in demand.

[johrasephoenix]

Yah.... to get rents that low on a non-slum quality building you generally need some kind of subsidy, usually a low income housing credit.  You could probably get rents around there with a 9% LIHTEC deal, but then the housing is in a special pool of income restricted housing. distributed through a lottery or long waitlist. and doesn't do anything to effect the market rate rents available for most people.