Downtown Development Overview

[cannon_fodder]

Thread specifically for OK POP:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21439.0;topicseen

[Dspike]

"Who owns the land between 244/Boulder/Jasper/MLK? If there were ever land begging to be redeveloped I would think that would be it."

Still seems like the perfect place for a 4-year, residential university. Add 5,000-10,000 students to downtown. And create an urban university option for students across the state. Would help make Tulsa the education hub of Oklahoma and would add fuel to the urban development going on.

Not many cities have 10-20 acres of land in or adjacent to their urban core. Hope we don't nickle and dime the property. This could (and hopefully will) be something big and transformative.

[SXSW]

"Who owns the land between 244/Boulder/Jasper/MLK? If there were ever land begging to be redeveloped I would think that would be it."

Still seems like the perfect place for a 4-year, residential university. Add 5,000-10,000 students to downtown. And create an urban university option for students across the state. Would help make Tulsa the education hub of Oklahoma and would add fuel to the urban development going on.

Not many cities have 10-20 acres of land in or adjacent to their urban core. Hope we don't nickle and dime the property. This could (and hopefully will) be something big and transformative.

OSU has plenty of land to expand to 10-15k students east of MLK to the RR tracks.  They could expand up the hill to the north if necessary.  It would be cool to see them repurpose the Evans Fintube site into a research complex and build a pedestrian bridge across the tracks to connect to the main campus.

I agree though whatever is developed to the west of MLK should be high quality, urban and transformative but I just think mixed use with mostly residential is a better land use than a sprawling OSU..

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

OSU has plenty of land to expand to 10-15k students east of MLK to the RR tracks.  They could expand up the hill to the north if necessary.  It would be cool to see them repurpose the Evans Fintube site into a research complex and build a pedestrian bridge across the tracks to connect to the main campus.

I agree though whatever is developed to the west of MLK should be high quality, urban and transformative but I just think mixed use with mostly residential is a better land use than a sprawling OSU..

I agree, expanding the residential aspect of OSU-Tulsa would be great for downtown. I think the OSU expansion plans were posted on here, maybe even this thread. I heard some say that perhaps OSU doesn't want to make their Tulsa campus too big or too cool (or make it a full 4-year university) because they don't want to lose students who would otherwise go to Stillwater.

I think the board of education should do what's best for Oklahoma and the students and if Tulsa needs a big public 4-year university, they should expand. Many students cannot move away from Tulsa (kids, spouse, job, family things, costs, etc) and having that as an option (where they can use government free/assisted tuition) would be good to help create a more educated workforce. There are always plenty of students who can and want to live the typical going-away-to-college lifestyle and move to Stillwater.

[SXSW]

There are always plenty of students who can and want to live the typical going-away-to-college lifestyle and move to Stillwater.

Exactly there are examples across the country where the main university is in a smaller city with an urban counterpart.  Boulder>Denver.  Lincoln>Omaha.  Fayetteville>Little Rock.  Madison>Milwaukee.  Tons of examples of 4 year research universities in each city that complement each other, not compete. 

More info on OSU's plans and the extent of UCAT property are detailed here: https://www.readfrontier.org/osu-tulsas-proposal-to-construct-technology-innovation-center-has-some-people-scratching-their-heads/

[cannon_fodder]

Alright, lets do this again and compare the University situation....

Denver has University of Denver (11,500 kids), UC Denver (17,500 - this is not a satellite campus) and all the cities also have TCC/T Tech type institutions.   Not even talking about outlying areas, satellite campuses, for profit schools, or tiny colleges.  And Boulder is to Denver what Norman is to OKC.  If Owasso had a public University with 27k kids I'd get why Tulsa doesn't have one.

Omaha has UN-Omaha (15000 kids), Creighton (8500), UN Medical Center and research complex (nearly 4k med students), Bellvue (10k), and several smaller colleges (ignoring small colleges generally from here on out). Lincoln is ~45 minutes away.

Little Rock has UARL (12,000) as well as U of Arkansas college of Medicine (3000 med students --- OSU Tulsa has 380, OU OKC has 900 plus a massive research and medical complex).

Milwaukee has UW-Milwaukee  (27,000 students), Marquette (12,000), Cardinal (7,000), and Concordia (7500) - as well as smaller schools such as Carroll (3200), Alverno (2800), and Milwaukee School of Engineering (2600).  Even though Madison is ~1 hour away.


Tulsa has: Langston (2k students), TU (~4K), and ORU (~4k).  We have satellite campuses for OU (1600 kids) and OSU ("over 3,000").    Then we have NSU BA with 3k.  Rogers State in Claremore with 4k.   So even with two sizeable private colleges picking up some slack, three pure satellite commuter campuses (which I didn't count in the other cities), one "legacy" commuter campus, and a state school in a suburb (I didn't count subruban campuses in the other cities)... we can claim maybe 23,000 students.   A disproportionate number being part time students.

Lets look at the OKC Metro in the same way:  OU Norman (32k), U Central Oklahoma (17k), OSU-OKC (8k), OK Christian U (2500), OCU (3k), Langston (2k), OU Medical (900)... and while I counted Rogers State for Tulsa, I won't even count the schools in Shawnee for OKC.  So that's what... 62+k college students plus state funded major research parks?  Hell, OU Dentistry-OKC has as many dentists as OSU-Tulsa has DOs.

For fun, lets expand this rant, because I'm feeling bitter, to include other major government subsidies in OKC:

State of Oklahoma:  46,000 jobs
Tinker:  24,000 jobs
OU - 13,000
FAA - 7,000
OU Health Sciences - 5,000
OKC - 5,000
OU Medical Cneter - 3,200
UCO - 3,000
OSU-OKC - 1,500
Throw in unknown thousand or so each at the VA, and federal DOT, DHS, and department of the Interior and we blow way, way past 100,000 government jobs in OKC metro.  Or about 1/5.    I now return you to those morons in OKC whining about government spending, totally ignoring the irony as they point at their shiny downtown.

To bring us back to focus - that many college students and that many subsidized jobs can really do wonders for development...

[TheArtist]

Alright, lets do this again and compare the University situation....

Denver has University of Denver (11,500 kids), UC Denver (17,500 - this is not a satellite campus) and all the cities also have TCC/T Tech type institutions.   Not even talking about outlying areas, satellite campuses, for profit schools, or tiny colleges.  And Boulder is to Denver what Norman is to OKC.  If Owasso had a public University with 27k kids I'd get why Tulsa doesn't have one.

Omaha has UN-Omaha (15000 kids), Creighton (8500), UN Medical Center and research complex (nearly 4k med students), Bellvue (10k), and several smaller colleges (ignoring small colleges generally from here on out). Lincoln is ~45 minutes away.

Little Rock has UARL (12,000) as well as U of Arkansas college of Medicine (3000 med students --- OSU Tulsa has 380, OU OKC has 900 plus a massive research and medical complex).

Milwaukee has UW-Milwaukee  (27,000 students), Marquette (12,000), Cardinal (7,000), and Concordia (7500) - as well as smaller schools such as Carroll (3200), Alverno (2800), and Milwaukee School of Engineering (2600).  Even though Madison is ~1 hour away.


Tulsa has: Langston (2k students), TU (~4K), and ORU (~4k).  We have satellite campuses for OU (1600 kids) and OSU ("over 3,000").    Then we have NSU BA with 3k.  Rogers State in Claremore with 4k.   So even with two sizeable private colleges picking up some slack, three pure satellite commuter campuses (which I didn't count in the other cities), one "legacy" commuter campus, and a state school in a suburb (I didn't count subruban campuses in the other cities)... we can claim maybe 23,000 students.   A disproportionate number being part time students.

Lets look at the OKC Metro in the same way:  OU Norman (32k), U Central Oklahoma (17k), OSU-OKC (8k), OK Christian U (2500), OCU (3k), Langston (2k), OU Medical (900)... and while I counted Rogers State for Tulsa, I won't even count the schools in Shawnee for OKC.  So that's what... 62+k college students plus state funded major research parks?  Hell, OU Dentistry-OKC has as many dentists as OSU-Tulsa has DOs.

For fun, lets expand this rant, because I'm feeling bitter, to include other major government subsidies in OKC:

State of Oklahoma:  46,000 jobs
Tinker:  24,000 jobs
OU - 13,000
FAA - 7,000
OU Health Sciences - 5,000
OKC - 5,000
OU Medical Cneter - 3,200
UCO - 3,000
OSU-OKC - 1,500
Throw in unknown thousand or so each at the VA, and federal DOT, DHS, and department of the Interior and we blow way, way past 100,000 government jobs in OKC metro.  Or about 1/5.    I now return you to those morons in OKC whining about government spending, totally ignoring the irony as they point at their shiny downtown.

To bring us back to focus - that many college students and that many subsidized jobs can really do wonders for development...

Great post!  Thanks for all the research.

[johrasephoenix]

There is a longstanding civil rights injunction from federal court saying that Langston is the official provider of higher education for the Tulsa metropolitan area.  OSU - Tulsa and OU - Tulsa (or any other public college) cannot legally offer freshman or sophomore level classes because that is the exclusive purview of Langston.  Therefore, Tulsa cannot have a 4-year public university other than Langston until that injunction is lifted.  

Langston apparently does not have the capacity or will to expand, and thus that land remains fallow.

It's ridiculous because they are all governed by the same board of regents.  They should all be pulling in the same direction.  Tulsa needs a 4 year public university.

At planning school, economic development strategies generally started and ended with roping in the universities.  They're what kept the flame alive in places like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati during the bad years.  We need that.  Heck, the economy of Massachusetts is based on exporting college degrees.    

[SXSW]

There is a longstanding civil rights injunction from federal court saying that Langston is the official provider of higher education for the Tulsa metropolitan area.  OSU - Tulsa and OU - Tulsa (or any other public college) cannot legally offer freshman of sophomore level classes because that is the exclusive purvey of Langston.  Therefore, Tulsa cannot have a 4-year public university other than Langston until that injunction is lifted.  

Langston apparently does not have the capacity or will to expand, and thus that land remains fallow.

It's ridiculous because they are all governed by the same board of regents.  They should all be pulling in the same direction.  Tulsa needs a 4 year university.

At planning school, economic development strategies generally started and ended with roping in the universities.  They're what kept the flame alive in places like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati during the bad years.  We need that.  Heck, the economy of Massachusettes is based on exporting college degrees.    

I wonder if GT Bynum or any of our local elected leaders would be interested in changing this?  It's ridiculous that our city is held hostage by Langston and TCC.

[TulsaGuy]

I'm excited to see that area coming alive.  With the Hanson brewery, Davenport Lofts (if it ever actually happens), and the GKFF stuff a little west the whole far north section of downtown could become awesome.  Also who would ever have thought Easton Street would become a nexus of urban awesomeness?

Now we have to address the enormous tragedy that is the huge wasted UCAT urban renewal space just north of Cain's.  If those homes were still standing they would be the best hipster real estate in the State of Oklahoma.  I would live there.  That hole in the middle of our city prevents all the social capital being generated downtown from bleeding into North Tulsa.  

Does anyone have any idea what GKFF plans to do with the site at Boulder and Easton?  I read where that is their next project but was wondering if anyone had anymore info on what they planned to do with it.  Thanks

[cannon_fodder]

There is a longstanding civil rights injunction from federal court saying that Langston is the official provider of higher education for the Tulsa metropolitan area.  

I've heard this, but have never seen such a case or injunction, or read about it in the World or other publication of record.  

Langston was given a mission by the Regents of the State of Oklahoma in 1979 to establish "urban centers" in Tulsa and OKC. That was to comply with provisions of the Civil Rights Act.  That is codified into Oklahoma Statute with an agreement that Oklahoma State Tulsa and Langston Tulsa would not offer competing courses:

70 OS 4666

Section 4666 - Direction and Authority to Design Statewide Plan for Langston University

In strengthening the State of Oklahoma's commitment to Langston's historical significance and future potential, the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education are directed and authorized to design a statewide plan for Langston University and report to the Legislature by January 1, 1999, for approval by the Legislature.

It is the intent of the Legislature that the functions and programs of Oklahoma State University/Tulsa shall be conducted in such manner as to cooperate with the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education in fulfilling the statewide mission for Langston University.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104061

Section 4667 - Establishment of Langston University at Tulsa

On July 1, 2001, there shall be established a branch of Langston University within the Tulsa metropolitan area consistent with the statewide plan for Langston University as provided in Section 6 of this act. Langston University shall continue to meet the missions and programs of the Langston Urban Center in Tulsa. The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education are authorized to make upper division undergraduate and graduate course offerings at the Langston University Branch in Tulsa available as the State Regents shall determine are appropriate. Undergraduate degree programs offered through Oklahoma State University/Tulsa shall not duplicate those undergraduate degree programs offered by Langston University Branch in Tulsa, as determined by the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education and shall be consistent with and in furthering implementation of the statewide plan for Langston University as developed by the State Regents pursuant to Section 6 of this act and filed with the Office for Civil Rights, United States Department of Education.

The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education shall fund Langston University at a level not less than its fiscal year 1998 level, and its Education and General Budget shall be held harmless from reductions in succeeding years. The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education shall allocate funds to Langston University sufficient to fund full time faculty in Tulsa at a level equal to seventy percent (70%) of its faculty level that existed in Tulsa in fiscal year 1998 and adequate building and classroom space which were funded in fiscal year 1998 in order to carry out all functions in Tulsa. The Board of Regents for the Oklahoma Agricultural and mechanical Colleges shall allocate space for Langston University in Tulsa.

It is the intent of the Legislature that Langston University be funded at a level consistent with the average allocation and allotment of the institutions in the regional funding tier as established by the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education.

Beginning with the 2001-2002 academic year, degrees earned at Langston University Branch in Tulsa shall be designated as awarded by the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education acting through Langston University.

If there is a lawsuit somewhere, I'd love to see it.  I don't deny it exists, just that I couldn't find it.  But at the end of the day, it appears there is merit to the statement that Langston hinders the development of OSU-Tulsa and hasn't itself grown to fill that need.

[hello]

Does anyone know what is going in by Chimera? I heard a soda fountain. Also, is something going in by the cigar bar?

[johrasephoenix]

There appears to be a 1978 agreement between the Dept. of Education and the state giving Langston exclusive rights to offer several academic programs.

What I don't get is why OSU-Tulsa and OU-Tulsa can't offer freshman and sophomore level classes.  pancakes?  It's like they are intentionally trying to make the schools irrelevant.  It means they can't cater to traditional students which is beyond silly. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

There appears to be a 1978 agreement between the Dept. of Education and the state giving Langston exclusive rights to offer several academic programs.

What I don't get is why OSU-Tulsa and OU-Tulsa can't offer freshman and sophomore level classes.  pancakes?  It's like they are intentionally trying to make the schools irrelevant.  It means they can't cater to traditional students which is beyond silly. 

Protecting TCC and Langston.

The big fail with that is the difficulty in getting an associates from TCC that will allow one to directly transfer credits to the 'big school' when you are ready to go to 4 year level.  It is WAY to hard to make that work.  Especially in some of the STEM fields....

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

Santa Fe Square is going to be turning dirt next week. And they're reconfiguring the apartments to make them more affordable.

http://www.newson6.com/story/34077095/steps-being-taken-on-massive-downtown-tulsa-development