Downtown Development Overview

[cannon_fodder]

Why do we never start new threads?

[TheArtist]

Why do we never start new threads?

Moderator, the above comment is off topic! 

[johrasephoenix]

Lack of retail is not ideal, but it is possible to make a visually appealing parking structure.  In Miami I saw a parking garage completely covered in ivory and plants like a vertical garden.  In Boston they have parking garages that you have to look twice at to figure out what they are because they are context sensitive and built with brick and masonry. 

Since he owns half of downtown he should be heavily invested in making the area as great as possible, so a blank poured concrete garage won't be doing his own business interests any favors.

I went to a talk today with the developer who rebuilt the Fenway neighborhood in Boston.  He said that in these dense, urban neighborhoods, the retail component at the bottom of his buildings wasn't that important financially.  What they did was create a strong sense of place, and from that strong sense of place he was able to push for higher rents on the rest of the building and other properties in the neighborhood.  He viewed the retail spaces as an amenity rather than a profit center.   

If he's taking the long term view as a huge landlord he should think carefully before plopping down an eyesore in the middle of his 'hood. 

[TheArtist]

If it doesn't have retail on the ground floor that will pretty much seal the deal on those few blocks from the Hotel to 5th being a retail corridor.  But really, you can't have every street be a retail corridor.  I have noticed that it seems like everyone always says, "hope it has retail on the ground floor" for every single development that goes in.  That isn't feasible.  Some areas are going to be neighborhood like with living on the ground floor, some will be "pass through and or utilitarian" corridors. Some areas it would be good to have office and service on the ground floor.  And then in some areas we will want to concentrate retail/restaurant. 

There really is no enforceable plan for downtown that would help create those areas.  Yes having retail space on every street level would at least allow retail to happen, but still seems to me to be a rag-tag, cross our fingers and hope for the best, approach.

But at least, my best spin on things, by "knocking out" one area for contention as a retail corridor, it can further make those areas that have the potential more viable.  IF you can get a concentration of retail in those good retail areas, 5th street, Boston, then you can have something pretty good going.  Even when I have visited cities like London, Paris, NYC, you can be on a super bustling street with lots of shops and such, then step around a corner and see very quiet streets with boring walls or residential, etc. If there are more people in my area of downtown, and they are also "pushed" to walk down my street instead of that area, well, not terribly bad imho. Whatever retail/restaurant is in the area would perhaps do better to move and those spaces get filled with office or service.  I would rather have the ground floor office in my area be replaced with retail-restaurant-hotel stuff.

[SXSW]

4th & Main absolutely should have a retail space.  4th and Detroit or Cheyenne or a number of other streets it wouldn't be as important.  Even the horrible 70's era garages downtown like the one across the street and at 6th & Boston have retail I don't understand why they don't want to make more money!?!

[johrasephoenix]

I doubt the developer thinks he can fill the retail space - there are already lots of vacant retail space on Main Street.  Honestly, Main Street has been so devastated by tear-downs and blank walls that I think Boston Avenue is going to be true downtown's retail corridor.  

Hopefully I'm wrong though.  As all those Deco District apartment complexes come on-line like the Meridia, Palace, TransOK, etc we'll hopefully see demand for retail outside of working hours.  It amazes me that the Deco District doesn't have a pub!  I bet there is a glorious art deco space somewhere just waiting to be transformed.

That said, he now controls most of the Deco District and his vision will drive it's success.  When Elliot Nelson started in the Blue Dome there was nothing but tumbleweeds.

I really hope he makes the parking garage clearly open to the public.  One of the biggest challenges for retail and entertainment in the Deco District is that parking is intimidating to people who don't go downtown often.  There are garages everywhere, but they mostly seem like they belong to individual buildings or monthly tenants if you don't know what you're doing.   If we can make parking feel painless and easy for drivers without sacrificing urbanity it will really help the Deco District attract visitors.  That is the genius of the massive parking garage that will be attached to Santa Fe Square.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Did anyone notice that Lucky's at Guthrie Green closed down and a new sign is up for Mr Nice Guys is up? That could be a big improvement. I was disappointed in how often Luckys would be closed on Friday/Saturday nights and during events. What is the point in having that space if you can't be open when the place is crowded? It might be hard to guess which events are going to be crowded and which are sparsely attended, but if you have that space, you should at least have it open with a skeleton crew for events. The inconsistency meant that they had no regular customers and it was almost always closed. Years ago I knew it would not last, in part because of that.

Maybe Mr Nice Guys can go for the carry-out crowd around there to bring in steady business to help with slow events. I like Lucky's food, but the menu at Guthrie Green was completely different than the restaurant. With Mr Nice Guys, they started in a food truck and don't need much space for what they do so customers should be able to get what they expect. I  hope they stick to regular hours (such as daily for lunch and dinner plus extended hours for special events) rather than the "let's stay closed until there's a really really big event and keep changing the menu to easy items no one expects from us"-business model.

They have a liquor license and are partially closing off the patio around the restaurant to better establish "drinking area" from the regular public area. That seems like a good way to define boundaries so customers can feel more like they belong. Although I liked it all being more open, I understand they need to follow the laws and stay in business. It is an amazing spot with so many inherent advantages (and a few disadvantages) and I am guessing Lucky's got a sweet rent deal (and Mr Nice Guys probably is also), so sad to see a local business fail under those advantageous conditions. Hope Mr Nice Guys thrives!

[hello]

Lucky's menu choice was very odd for that location. Way too fancy. I think (and hope) Mr Nice Guys will do quite well!

[Conan71]

That Lucky's was always run as an afterthought.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Does anyone know what is going in the old Mason's place in the Brady? They're finally removing stuff after the bar sat closed for a couple months. The location has a nice patio but it's hard to sit there with the people puffing on their cigars next door.

We finally have an answer to this: http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/scene/food/review-amelia-s-fires-up-superb-food-in-stunning-setting/article_9c377689-8ce2-541c-a3ae-ecc1acc2734a.html

ANOTHER pizza place downtown! 2 doors down from Hey Mambos, another wood-fired pizza place. Sure they serve other stuff too, but so does Hey Mambo. Sounds like a great idea.

Before this we counted on a thread on here, what was it, 8-10 pizza places downtown? I don't understand the economics of this or maybe the pizza restaurant owners don't understand the economics of it. I can see why Joe Mammas has stalled. Any word on that mystery?

[Ibanez]

We finally have an answer to this: http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/scene/food/review-amelia-s-fires-up-superb-food-in-stunning-setting/article_9c377689-8ce2-541c-a3ae-ecc1acc2734a.html

ANOTHER pizza place downtown! 2 doors down from Hey Mambos, another wood-fired pizza place. Sure they serve other stuff too, but so does Hey Mambo. Sounds like a great idea.

Before this we counted on a thread on here, what was it, 8-10 pizza places downtown? I don't understand the economics of this or maybe the pizza restaurant owners don't understand the economics of it. I can see why Joe Mammas has stalled. Any word on that mystery?

I wouldn't call Amelia's a pizza place. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 weeks and have yet to see anyone order a pizza. Maybe at lunch, but not when I have been there for dinner.

[AdamsHall]

I wouldn't call Amelia's a pizza place. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 weeks and have yet to see anyone order a pizza. Maybe at lunch, but not when I have been there for dinner.

Having gone three times in 2 weeks, is it seems fair to say you think it is good.  Any details?

[DTowner]

Scott Cherry reviewed Amelia's in yesterday's Tulsa World.  He raved about it and gave it 5 stars.  That last time he was this enthusiastic about a new restaurant was when Torero opened.  Hopefully this turns out better.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/weekend/foodreview/review-amelia-s-fires-up-superb-food-in-stunning-setting/article_9c377689-8ce2-541c-a3ae-ecc1acc2734a.html

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I wouldn't call Amelia's a pizza place. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 weeks and have yet to see anyone order a pizza. Maybe at lunch, but not when I have been there for dinner.

The TW article had a bunch of pizza photos and talked about the wood-fired pizzas for $12 (only cheap item on the menu) so it looks like sort of a pizza place. Hey Mambo also has mostly non-pizza items on menu but still is a wood-fire pizza place.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Scott Cherry reviewed Amelia's in yesterday's Tulsa World.  He raved about it and gave it 5 stars.  That last time he was this enthusiastic about a new restaurant was when Torero opened.  Hopefully this turns out better.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/weekend/foodreview/review-amelia-s-fires-up-superb-food-in-stunning-setting/article_9c377689-8ce2-541c-a3ae-ecc1acc2734a.html

That's what I thought of too. Torero didn't turn out well but I think he was a little overzealous with that review. I went there and ordered some of the same things and my review was much less glowing: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21369.0


In the past I often noticed Scott Cherry tended to give more suburban/cookie-cutter/chain looking places higher reviews on atmosphere while he gives lower ratings to more interesting/amazing places like the Vault, Prairie Brewpub, Tallgrass etc. Those places hold water with just about any trendy place I've been too in NYC/Brooklyn/SF/LA. I think those atmosphere ratings have gotten better recently though.