Downtown Development Overview

[hello]

Thanks Arvest 


http://www.forgottentulsa.com/forgotten-tulsa/a-trip-down-main-street

[BKDotCom]

Thanks Arvest 


http://www.forgottentulsa.com/forgotten-tulsa/a-trip-down-main-street

Fast Eddie's just wasn't the same in his relocated spot.

[DowntownDan]

You will need to raise at $2 million to pay the organizers

https://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2014/01/01/do-the-economics-of-bowl-games-make-sense-for-schools-sponsors/#1cbe8e413cfb

Then you need to make sure that the sponsor can afford to pay ESPN for the broadcast

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vincentfrank/2014/12/20/the-economics-of-college-football-bowl-season/#769017ad3d45

Also don't forget you will need sponsors to help pay the colleges as well regardless of who plays.

Details, schmetails.

[DTowner]

Yes as this will be across the street.  HORRIBLE

I would love to see ground floor retail in all parking garages, but I can also see why Arvest is not expending extra money to do so in light of all the retail vacancies in the area of 5th, Main and Boulder.  This is a missed opportunity for the future, but it is replacing a surface parking lot, so it is an improvement. 

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

it is replacing a surface parking lot, so it is an improvement. 

Is it, though? I parking lot always has within it the potential to be something in the future. A parking garage will probably forever be a parking garage (or at least has the tendency to remain so for a much longer period of time). I know this sounds heretical around here, but sometimes a well-maintained and nicely landscaped parking lot > leaking, haunted parking garage.

[ELG4America]

It appears from the rendering that a future conversion of the first floor to retail may be contemplated. It looks like 12-15ft+ ceilings which provides plenty of room for subfloors, electric, water, and HVAC. So I will give points for that.

I will also give points that to the extent that this lot pulls regular downtowners into the structured parking and off the temporary street parking, it should, over time, improve foot traffic to existing downtown retail.

However, I am also of the mind that structured parking is almost never removed and this thing is likely to be on an extremely important corner for the next half century. 

[SXSW]

The city should issue a moratorium for no new downtown parking garages unless they are 1) part of a larger structure (offices or residential above) and 2) have street level retail space.  This is (almost) 2019, we shouldn't be building stand-alone parking garages in our core downtown area. 

[Laramie]

Parking garages aren't the most popular of developments; however you can never have enough parking especially in a downtown as vibrant as the one in Tulsa.  Parking will help create and attract new businesses.

As I mentioned on one of OKC's forums; you never park, look back or concern yourself with how beautiful a parking garage is--it's a parking garage; unless it supports store and/or retail frontage.  You can never have enough parking downtown.  Tulsa's parking is a valued investment.

[TheArtist]

Parking garages aren't the most popular of developments; however you can never have enough parking especially in a downtown as vibrant as the one in Tulsa.  Parking will help create and attract new businesses.

As I mentioned on one of OKC's forums; you never park, look back or concern yourself with how beautiful a parking garage is--it's a parking garage; unless it supports store and/or retail frontage.  You can never have enough parking downtown.  Tulsa's parking is a valued investment.

Actually more parking, whether its in a parking garage or surface is hurtful to developing a lively, urban core. Lots of parking garages equals "suburbia done tall".  A "high-rise suburban core" is not what we really want. What you end up with in that scenario is basically like Dallas as a for instance with areas that have lots of density and tall buildings, but its still not a real city.  Its not a city where the sidewalks are full of people and lively sidewalk cafes, main street shopping areas, etc.

I remember going to an area of Dallas this last spring and it was a beautiful day, the kind of day when even in Tulsa the River Parks are full of activity, there are people out and about downtown, etc. but though there were all kinds of tall building all around us, and even a smattering of restaurants and a few shops, (we were in the area to eat at a Mexican restaurant) not ONE sole was to be seen outside.  The restaurant fronted a main road, but we parked in back in a multi level parking garage and wound our way through some desolate courtyard between some large office buildings and into the busy restaurant. The restaurant was fairly busy which I suppose is good news, but the whole experience was lame.  An urban lifestyle it was not.  Again, it was suburbia done tall. People still driving to a destination then that's pretty much that.  

Not having as much parking and having a main street type area full of shops and restaurants... well let me put it this way, if you create a superb built environment, a really desirable and attractive experience, a true urban lifestyle, people will get there. Uber, scooter, transit, whatever, there are more options now than ever.  Imagine block after block after block of unbroken really neat shops with beautiful window displays, lively outdoor cafes, small bodegas, flower shops, antique stores etc. with carts/racks/shelves of goodies out on the sidewalks, small interesting pocket museums, large museums, art galleries, etc. etc.  You can't create that with fake urbanism.  

The transition to that kind of scenario is not easy when you basically have a downtown that is a tiny island in a sea of car zoning, but trying to be both urban and suburban you end up with bland, struggling areas. Which isn't "easy" to remedy either. All around the world you see those great urban areas and they have a lot of things in common.  Lots and lots of parking garages is NOT one of them.   Those great areas have a "formula" that has worked for thousands of years. And on the other hand I have seen areas that have tried to have lots of parking and try to "evolve" into those great areas in those great cities... and they have never done it.  Even with growth that would be the envy of Tulsa. Density that would be incredible compared to what we have... but is still actually just "suburbia done tall". Same lifestyle, same desolation and isolation that you get living in the suburbs.

Yes, our downtown may continue to grow, but we will also continue to wonder why our retail struggles, why we don't have a lively core except in some areas on First Fridays and during festivals.  

Tall buildings (parking garages included) and density do not equal urban living.  You just have high-rise suburbia.  Catering to the car = suburban.  Catering to pedestrians and transit = urban.

Lets look at what was said about this parking garage.  They put it in, not because there was not already parking nearby, within just 3 or 4 blocks.  They put it in because they said their employees apparently did not want to walk those 3 or 4 blocks.  

So this is a great example of catering to an audience that does not want to walk, that will not walk to my store for instance. So now we have these people who do not want to walk even less likely to be walking past stores, so that puts the store at a disadvantage and if we did more of that we would have less stores,,,, ok we actually can't have much less for there aren't really any others other than mine in the area.  Less shops makes the area less appealing to those urban minded folk who do like to walk..... except they will end up like many of us, finding that we "don't like to walk in Tulsa".  I have often heard that "Tulsan's will not walk." but what I have found more true is that, oh they will walk, they just don't like to walk in Tulsa's built up areas because they are really not great places to walk.  

Again, we catered to the auto people who did not want to walk a few blocks, which will actually have the effect of creating an area that is less desirable to walk in, less lively, etc. for even those people who do like walking and do like an urban lifestyle.  We will continue to try and cater to the suburbanites, at the expense of urbanites.  And I thought it was the "creative class" urbanites that we were trying to attract?  Or at least have an area in our city that would be attractive to them that could be competitive with those cities that can offer good urban lifestyle options.   If we really want our downtown to boom in the modern world, it will not happen by catering to suburbanites, but catering to urbanites who won't mind walking a few blocks and when they do walk like walking down interesting, lively streets, those areas which make urban living desirable and worthwhile.  Which make the extra expense worthwhile, which make the walking worthwhile.

A parking garage that was expressly built to help a few hundred people not have to walk a few blocks, a parking garage that will still be a "gap" in the urban fabric, well,,, is just that.

[hello]

Parking garages aren't the most popular of developments; however you can never have enough parking especially in a downtown as vibrant as the one in Tulsa.  Parking will help create and attract new businesses.

As I mentioned on one of OKC's forums; you never park, look back or concern yourself with how beautiful a parking garage is--it's a parking garage; unless it supports store and/or retail frontage.  You can never have enough parking downtown.  Tulsa's parking is a valued investment.

Are you part of the parking garage lobby? 

I would not call Tulsa's Downtown "Vibrant", nor would I say it needs more parking. Maybe in 50 years.

[rebound]

Not having as much parking and having a main street type area full of shops and restaurants... well let me put it this way, if you create a superb built environment, a really desirable and attractive experience, a true urban lifestyle, people will get there. Uber, scooter, transit, whatever, there are more options now than ever.  Imagine block after block after block of unbroken really neat shops with beautiful window displays, lively outdoor cafes, small bodegas, flower shops, antique stores etc. with carts/racks/shelves of goodies out on the sidewalks, small interesting pocket museums, large museums, art galleries, etc. etc.  You can't create that with fake urbanism.  

I agree with everything you are saying, with one caveat.   True urbanism implies that the people working/shopping downtown, live downtown and not in Jenks.  Example, if I live downtown, then walking (or whatever) four blocks to work everyday is fine.   But if I don't live downtown and I have to drive everyday, then park, and then walk, those four blocks are a PITA.  Every Day, rain or shine.   That's different than going downtown, or to the Arts District, etc, and parking and walking around several blocks in a afternoon/evening.  It's two distinct mindsets. 

[DowntownDan]

It appears from the rendering that a future conversion of the first floor to retail may be contemplated. It looks like 12-15ft+ ceilings which provides plenty of room for subfloors, electric, water, and HVAC. So I will give points for that.

I will also give points that to the extent that this lot pulls regular downtowners into the structured parking and off the temporary street parking, it should, over time, improve foot traffic to existing downtown retail.

However, I am also of the mind that structured parking is almost never removed and this thing is likely to be on an extremely important corner for the next half century.  

From the article:  "With those elevated first-floor ceilings, if the day ever comes where we have automated cars, that could be converted into retail very easily."

So it is contemplated, but not until everyone is using automated cars. In reality demand could be there, but not until more people live downtown and would use regular type stores within walking distance. Someone said it before, Tulsa will never be downtown Manhattan or Philadelphia, where people are walking everywhere. Most cities west of the East Coast had their fastest development after the automobile was invented. Tulsa downtown had a particularly rough patch and as it currently stands, most people walking downtown are coming in from other parts of town and spending a few hours eating, shopping, visiting, etc. Without permanent residents there will not be bodegas for groceries or other significant retail because most people have that near their homes. We need to keep expanding living options downtown, at all income levels, and make downtown a real 24-7 neighborhood. Until people are living downtown in large numbers it will remain to be mostly bars and restaurants. When we hit the point that downtown can sustain a grocery store for downtown residents, it will then hopefully be a tipping point.

My "big picture" idea is for downtown businesses to band together and offer Uber or Lyft codes up to $10 for one way rides. That would encourage anyone living within a $10 zone of downtown to use that service to get downtown knowing they'll get a free ride home. I use Uber or Lyft because its $5 to get downtown, but if you could extend that into the far reaches of midtown and in some situations even into South Tulsa, maybe more people would use these services instead of driving and parking. It's a start at least to try and convince car-a-holics to consider something other than drive-and-park. Not to mention it's likely effect on reducing DUIs and the city or state could pitch in to this plan if they truly care about reducing drunk driving. The one-way ride could also be used by people who drove and parked and unintentionally had a few too many.

[SXSW]

^ I know Lyft has definitely changed the way I get downtown to go to events and restaurants.  I rarely ever drive and park downtown for those things anymore, and others in my age group (30's) have a similar mindset especially those living in Midtown.  The problem is without better mass transit people will still drive to their jobs downtown.  I know if I'm just going downtown for an errand or for a meeting, Coffee, etc I'll drive and park at a meter, usually no more than a block or two from where I'm going.  The ParkMobile app is really easy to use.

[Conan71]

Actually more parking, whether its in a parking garage or surface is hurtful to developing a lively, urban core. Lots of parking garages equals "suburbia done tall".  A "high-rise suburban core" is not what we really want. What you end up with in that scenario is basically like Dallas as a for instance with areas that have lots of density and tall buildings, but its still not a real city.  Its not a city where the sidewalks are full of people and lively sidewalk cafes, main street shopping areas, etc.

I remember going to an area of Dallas this last spring and it was a beautiful day, the kind of day when even in Tulsa the River Parks are full of activity, there are people out and about downtown, etc. but though there were all kinds of tall building all around us, and even a smattering of restaurants and a few shops, (we were in the area to eat at a Mexican restaurant) not ONE sole was to be seen outside.  The restaurant fronted a main road, but we parked in back in a multi level parking garage and wound our way through some desolate courtyard between some large office buildings and into the busy restaurant. The restaurant was fairly busy which I suppose is good news, but the whole experience was lame.  An urban lifestyle it was not.  Again, it was suburbia done tall. People still driving to a destination then that's pretty much that.  

Not having as much parking and having a main street type area full of shops and restaurants... well let me put it this way, if you create a superb built environment, a really desirable and attractive experience, a true urban lifestyle, people will get there. Uber, scooter, transit, whatever, there are more options now than ever.  Imagine block after block after block of unbroken really neat shops with beautiful window displays, lively outdoor cafes, small bodegas, flower shops, antique stores etc. with carts/racks/shelves of goodies out on the sidewalks, small interesting pocket museums, large museums, art galleries, etc. etc.  You can't create that with fake urbanism.  

The transition to that kind of scenario is not easy when you basically have a downtown that is a tiny island in a sea of car zoning, but trying to be both urban and suburban you end up with bland, struggling areas. Which isn't "easy" to remedy either. All around the world you see those great urban areas and they have a lot of things in common.  Lots and lots of parking garages is NOT one of them.   Those great areas have a "formula" that has worked for thousands of years. And on the other hand I have seen areas that have tried to have lots of parking and try to "evolve" into those great areas in those great cities... and they have never done it.  Even with growth that would be the envy of Tulsa. Density that would be incredible compared to what we have... but is still actually just "suburbia done tall". Same lifestyle, same desolation and isolation that you get living in the suburbs.

Yes, our downtown may continue to grow, but we will also continue to wonder why our retail struggles, why we don't have a lively core except in some areas on First Fridays and during festivals.  

Tall buildings (parking garages included) and density do not equal urban living.  You just have high-rise suburbia.  Catering to the car = suburban.  Catering to pedestrians and transit = urban.

Lets look at what was said about this parking garage.  They put it in, not because there was not already parking nearby, within just 3 or 4 blocks.  They put it in because they said their employees apparently did not want to walk those 3 or 4 blocks.  

So this is a great example of catering to an audience that does not want to walk, that will not walk to my store for instance. So now we have these people who do not want to walk even less likely to be walking past stores, so that puts the store at a disadvantage and if we did more of that we would have less stores,,,, ok we actually can't have much less for there aren't really any others other than mine in the area.  Less shops makes the area less appealing to those urban minded folk who do like to walk..... except they will end up like many of us, finding that we "don't like to walk in Tulsa".  I have often heard that "Tulsan's will not walk." but what I have found more true is that, oh they will walk, they just don't like to walk in Tulsa's built up areas because they are really not great places to walk.  

Again, we catered to the auto people who did not want to walk a few blocks, which will actually have the effect of creating an area that is less desirable to walk in, less lively, etc. for even those people who do like walking and do like an urban lifestyle.  We will continue to try and cater to the suburbanites, at the expense of urbanites.  And I thought it was the "creative class" urbanites that we were trying to attract?  Or at least have an area in our city that would be attractive to them that could be competitive with those cities that can offer good urban lifestyle options.   If we really want our downtown to boom in the modern world, it will not happen by catering to suburbanites, but catering to urbanites who won't mind walking a few blocks and when they do walk like walking down interesting, lively streets, those areas which make urban living desirable and worthwhile.  Which make the extra expense worthwhile, which make the walking worthwhile.

A parking garage that was expressly built to help a few hundred people not have to walk a few blocks, a parking garage that will still be a "gap" in the urban fabric, well,,, is just that.

You, myself, and others who are long time posters on here may well agree with your notion but Tulsa since the post WW-II years became suburban-oriented and grew away from the downtown core.  With suburban school districts being a primary attraction for people moving out to the 'burbs, they simply are not of the mindset of public transit or walkability, when it comes to going to downtown, it's just not a priority for them.  They are used to car-oriented suburban Hell (sorry, too much editorializing?).  For downtown to continue to grow and prosper, there will be a need for more structured parking to attract people from the suburbs to shop, eat, and play downtown.  That is, unless the current parking garages are under-utilized.

When my wife and I make a return trip to Tulsa, we don't concern ourselves with how close we can park to our destination downtown, on Cherry St., or Brookside.  We enjoy walking.  Even though we don't see walking as an annoyance we also recognize not everyone else looks at it the way we do.

[SXSW]

You, myself, and others who are long time posters on here may well agree with your notion but Tulsa since the post WW-II years became suburban-oriented and grew away from the downtown core.  With suburban school districts being a primary attraction for people moving out to the 'burbs, they simply are not of the mindset of public transit or walkability, when it comes to going to downtown, it's just not a priority for them.  They are used to car-oriented suburban Hell (sorry, too much editorializing?).  For downtown to continue to grow and prosper, there will be a need for more structured parking to attract people from the suburbs to shop, eat, and play downtown.  That is, unless the current parking garages are under-utilized.

When my wife and I make a return trip to Tulsa, we don't concern ourselves with how close we can park to our destination downtown, on Cherry St., or Brookside.  We enjoy walking.  Even though we don't see walking as an annoyance we also recognize not everyone else looks at it the way we do.

One of my favorite quotes:

Anyplace worth its salt has a "parking problem" - James Castle