Davenport Urban Lofts

[carltonplace]

The City of Tulsa Ordinance against noise is as follows:

"It shall be an offense for any person to willfully or maliciously disturb the public peace or quietude or the life, health or safety of any individual in any manner, by creating any noise of such character or duration so to be unreasonably loud or disturbing, including but not limited to the following:

The playing of any radio, phonograph or musical instrument in any manner or in such volume, particularly during the hours between 11:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., so as to unreasonably disturb the quiet, comfort or repose of any person in any dwelling, hotel or other type of residence"

You have to think that anyone purchasing one of these will be fully aware of what this neighborhood is.

[Bamboo World]

You have to think that anyone purchasing one of these will be fully aware of what this neighborhood is.

Yes, one would think that anyone purchasing a Davenport unit would be fully aware of what the neighborhood is:

1. Often noisy at night; and
2. A place where Tulsa's noise ordinance is in effect, but not enforced.

And one would think that anyone with enough money to purchase a Davenport unit might be able to request that the current noise ordinance be enforced, as in any other neighborhood in Tulsa.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Everybody says that at first.  Then they live there and it gets annoying.

[Bamboo World]

Everybody says that at first.  Then they live there and it gets annoying.

Maybe not everybody, but it only takes one person with enough money/power/influence or whatever to prod the City to enforce its nuisance ordinance.

[Cats Cats Cats]

The people that pretend to like dull bass sounds in their bedroom at 1 am are full of smiles.

[Bamboo World]

The people that pretend to like dull bass sounds in their bedroom at 1 am are full of smiles.

I agree, and I can easily see Davenport tenants demanding that Tulsa's noise ordinance be enforced in their neighborhood -- and prevailing.

[hello]

I'm glad Davenport is taking the extra steps to reduce noise. Glad they are being proactive about the situation.The redesign is beautiful. 
But it's not a question of if someone will complain, it's a question of when. It will happen, and it will hurt the businesses that took a chance on the Brady and made it the place it is today. Having places like Cain's, Soundpony (not just a bar with music, they are supporters of community, look at what Tulsa Tough has become), etc are what keep people here.

Let's not be like Austin.

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/836-the-crisis-of-gentrification-hits-the-austin-music-scene/

[Cats Cats Cats]

I'm glad Davenport is taking the extra steps to reduce noise. Glad they are being proactive about the situation. But it's not a question of if someone will complain, it's a question of when. It will happen, and it will hurt the businesses that took a chance on the Brady and made it the place it is today.

Let's not be like Austin.

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/836-the-crisis-of-gentrification-hits-the-austin-music-scene/

That's coming.  It is already coming to the point that if you want in downtown you have to have big money backing you. At least anywhere near entertainment districts.  I'm wondering where the next place is going to be that the small guy can make cool so money can take over.

[Bamboo World]

But it's not a question of if someone will complain, it's a question of when.

Yes, almost certainly someone will complain, about the noise, or about the gentrification, or about the potential gentrification, or about the lack of development, or about too much development, or about the type of development, or about the lack of parking, or about too much parking, or whatever...

[Bamboo World]

I'm wondering where the next place is going to be that the small guy can make cool so money can take over.

In one of the many under-utilized areas of Tulsa.  Gentrification is the usual result in such places.  We'll see ...

[rdj]

The folks with money follow the energy generated by creative folks that have taken the risk that folks with money either won't take or are too conservative too take.

It is why fostering the creative class is so important.  But, many people have it wrong.  It isn't the YP that you have to attract, you have to attract and keep the artist or the creative that will attract the YP that will attract the older folks with money.  Then gentrification happens and the artist moves to another part of town and the cycle re-starts.  In my nearly 15 years in Tulsa it has roughly been Cherry St -> Brookside -> Blue Dome -> Brady.  What's next?  Pearl?  Kendall Whittier?

Part of the difference is the city with huge backing from civic leaders (ie GKFF) picked the latest winner when they invested heavily in the Brady District.  That investment sped up the gentrification (if you want to call it that) by at least a decade.  No other place in Tulsa, save the neighborhoods around TGP, will see see that kind of rapid growth and appreciation of property value.

[DowntownDan]

Westin in Austin builds next to loud music venue, then sues loud music venue for being a loud music venue.  The risk is real.  Says that they spend an extra $2 million to protect from sound and it doesn't work.  The location of this is just a really, really bad idea.

http://keyetv.com/news/local/hotel-built-next-to-austins-historic-music-district-files-lawsuit-over-loud-music

[cannon_fodder]

The article mentions negative reviews because of noise complaints...so I went and looked.  They have 4.5 stars on Google, dozens of 1 star reviews as backlash for suing a local music venue. I didn't check other ratings services, and if you read enough reviews I'm sure you could find the negative ones.  But ouch, the backlash hurts.

They have put the manager in a tough spot. If the noise is really hurting business, he has to try to address it. Then again, if the music venue is not breaking any ordinances and the hotel knew exactly what they were getting into when it was built - hard to blame the venue. They are in a district with specific ordinances allowing outdoor music until 2 AM, with a history of live music, and that is a tourist draw because they have live music.  So you build a hotel next to it, then complain because you didn't understand what now?

The hotel asked the city to investigate, so they did:

According to the Austin Chronicle, staff in the city's code enforcement and music and entertainment office disagree that the hotel did everything necessary to prevent loud "chest thumping bass," as described in the suit, from seeping into guest rooms from the neighboring music venues. Last year, the Chronicle uncovered a September 2015 city study of the sound problems at the Westin. In that study, city officials wrote that "there is nearly no low-frequency sound mitigating materials built into the building."

The city's report also said that The Nook was not violating the city's noise ordinance, which limits outdoor amplified noise to a certain limit.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2016/12/29/downtown-austin-hotel-sues-sixth-street-venue-over.html

A good summary of this article, which discusses how SF passed an ordinance basically saying an existing music venue cannot be considered a nuisance if it is within ordinances:
http://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2015-11-27/playback-agents-of-change-downtown-clubs-vs-downtown-hotels/


Davenport Lofts website shows 9 reserved lofts, and 15 available after a good while of pre-sale.  With the addition of a years long construction project and eventual hope of the POP Museum, as well as parking garage, recording studio, and brewery on the same street...  I'm surprised they aren't reconsidering the spot for $800k condos.  

I like the development (even the name is awesome) and I hope they do well.  Hopefully they find a better home OR build it as planned and their noise reduction plans work as promised.  And, of course, the wealthy residents accept the fact that they moved within a block of 2 breweries, a few bars, several music venues, and a museum that is hopefully vibrant all the time--- all attracting a wide array of people for a wide array of hours.  I really hope they work out, because they seem awesome and I want one (anyone have $800k I can borrow, forever and not pay back?):

http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/res

[Bamboo World]

...Hopefully they find a better home OR build it as planned and their noise reduction plans work as promised.  And, of course, the wealthy residents accept the fact that they moved within a block of 2 breweries, a few bars, several music venues, and a museum that is hopefully vibrant all the time--- all attracting a wide array of people for a wide array of hours...

http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/res

Here's what I think will happen if the Davenport is built:  Some if not most people who purchase apartments there will regret it, then they'll start complaining endlessly, in an attempt to change the status quo.  They will put pressure on the existing bars and music venues to quiet down, to close earlier, or to leave the area.  The Davenport owners will complain to the police and to elected City officials.   Most likely, the Davenport owners will eventually get what they want -- a quieter neighborhood.
 

[Oil Capital]

Weird. The prices have jumped considerably since the first concept. Now they start at $562,000 with most reaching into the $800,000's.

I thought they were on the upper edge of affordability before, but this goes into a completely different bracket. When oil is good, you can find some younger people to buy up $400,000 lofts, but at these prices they really will be for older people.

What strikes me about the design is that they lifted the units up two tall stories so that even the lowest apartments can see over Soundpony's building. The two units closest to Soundpony are the ones at $562,000 while the other side of the building skyrockets in price. They are really stressing the noise attenuation...

So instead of being a building for the richer, hip, young-ish crowd that I was hoping for, it really is turning into more of a luxury building for rich older folks looking to downsize. I'd still expect the people moving in to be moving in partially for the surroundings, but they might be the type to still expect perfect quiet at 9pm. Who knows though, there are lots of older people who like to party, but it only takes one...

What really makes me ponder is that if the south side of the building is worth so much more, what happens when someone else eventually tries to build there? Apparently that would decrease their worth by ~$300,000 if a bar is included?

I guess the Lost Ogle was more on point than I thought. I still think something like this can work in the area, and I want to see more apartments in the Brady, but I'm getting much more pessimistic about this specific project.

I suspect the price difference between the north and south units has more to do with the south units having views of downtown than with the north units' proximity to a bar.  (and there's no $300,000 price difference; the south units are also larger.)