Davenport Urban Lofts

[TheArtist]

I have never been to a bustling main street in any city, anywhere in the world, that has developments like this on it.

Used to be this wouldn't happen simply because of "natural use" patterns and such.  But in todays car culture, developing almost from scratch, which is what we are kind of doing here, traditional pedestrian/transit friendly areas is, well, not going to be natural.  We almost have to work backwards at it and "take old main street type areas apart" so to speak in order to see how they tick, and then put in zoning and such to try to encourage new ones to emerge.  That is if you even think that we want such things. 

This may right itself, or it may not.  Thing is this isn't the only such situation that is happening or will happen downtown. Urban 8 is breaking up 3rd street. That possible new development in the Blue Dome that I like, looks like there is a parking garage facing the property where I think the Brickhugger LLC group is doing stuff on the old city property. (sorry have to hurry this morning so can't look up the names lol) If there is not retail entirely wrapping that garage, the other new development may find its looking at an ugly, dead zone garage space. 

Might be ok to face such developments if your in housing.  Helps make for a quieter street.  But you don't want to face or be next to such developments if your retail/restaurant.  Quieter streets don't help those businesses.

It's going to be such a shame if in 15-20 years from now I am saying "I told ya so".   Cause that is going to mean a lot of people have been hurt and lost money, have worked hard only to have had dashed dreams that could have been avoided. 

[hello]

Anyone moving in here will know what they are getting into.

This development is being marketed to empty nesters from down south to move to downtown. They may *think* they know what they're getting into but I doubt it. There is just no way these places coexist without complaints from people who feel entitled by their half a million investment.

[Bamboo World]

This development is being marketed to empty nesters from down south to move to downtown. They may *think* they know what they're getting into but I doubt it. There is just no way these places coexist without complaints from people who feel entitled by their half a million investment.

It's been a while since I've looked at the issue, but generally a prior use is not a absolute defense to a nuisance complaint - it is merely one of many factors.  I also assume Tulsa's noise ordinances apply to downtown just like everywhere else.  Maybe those have been loosely enforced in this area in the past, but that could change with some new neighbors.

I agree with hello's and DTowner's comments.

After living in central Tulsa for 25 years, what I've observed is that ordinances here are enforced willy-nilly, not uniformly or fairly.  It doesn't depend what the issue is or what the law is.  Who's complaining is what matters -- and to whom.  It's about personalities, politics, and power, not the actual reasonable/ethical enforcement of codes.  Money talks...

I live near downtown, in a neighborhood with many houses and apartments, plus a few offices and retail businesses.  It's been that way since the 1920s, if not longer.  A few years ago, I had a neighbor who purchased a house across the street from an apartment building, then started relentlessly complaining about it.  Fact is, she and her husband didn't like apartment buildings.  Yet, they bought a house across the street from an apartment building that had been there for decades.

They griped and griped and griped and griped and griped until the City Council changed the zoning in the neighborhood to single family residential, even though some of us were satisfied with the way it was.  After the couple finally got their way, they moved from Tulsa.  I've heard that they divorced.  In retrospect, I think they were perpetually unhappy.  For some reason, they hated apartment buildings, as they announced at neighborhood association meetings on numerous occasions.

So, yes, I can easily foresee people buying apartments at the Davenport -- then bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching about the noise in the neighborhood.

I also think there are a lot of better things to get worked up about than this development.  In the end, the difficulty of selling these at this price, location and design may solve the problem.

Again, I agree.  In my opinion, the dwelling units are too deep, with windows too far from the major living spaces.  The surrounding views (and potential problem of noise) at that particular location downtown are not worth the asking price.

[cannon_fodder]

There are thousands of developments like this in NYC, SanFran, Chicago, and other bustling streetsastreetsall over the world.  In many neighborhoods in SanFran, buildings like this are the norm. Then on the corners there is ground floor retail.

I'm not sure you can support constant ground floor retail with 4-5 story development. In Manhattan with 30 story development - sure. But that's not Tulsa.

Not every building will have ground floor retail and a rock bottom price.

[TheArtist]

There are thousands of developments like this in NYC, SanFran, Chicago, and other bustling streetsastreetsall over the world.  In many neighborhoods in SanFran, buildings like this are the norm. Then on the corners there is ground floor retail.

I'm not sure you can support constant ground floor retail with 4-5 story development. In Manhattan with 30 story development - sure. But that's not Tulsa.

Not every building will have ground floor retail and a rock bottom price.

Yes you do see this type of development in other cities, and ones that have bustling sidewalks.  What I meant was that you don't see this type of development on your Main Streets or "King/Queen/High" streets, smack dab in the middle of your shopping/dining/entertainment corridors. 

It's a truism that "If you try to make all your streets "A" streets (pedestrian lively), none of them will be."  Even in NYC, Paris, London, etc. there are plenty of streets, actually most of them really, that are mostly quiet with only a few pedestrians.  People filter on to the main corridors near transit and along streets with a high concentration of shops, restaurants, etc. I have never seen something like this along those types of streets.

[Tulsagirl]

I understand that the plan is now to have locally owned retail on the Main Street building front , and that the entrance to the parking parage will be on the side of the building.  Also the developers said that there were plans to include some smaller units, and that those would be announced in the next few weeks

[TheArtist]

I understand that the plan is now to have locally owned retail on the Main Street building front , and that the entrance to the parking parage will be on the side of the building.  Also the developers said that there were plans to include some smaller units, and that those would be announced in the next few weeks

Excellent!

[DowntownDan]

I understand that the plan is now to have locally owned retail on the Main Street building front , and that the entrance to the parking parage will be on the side of the building.  Also the developers said that there were plans to include some smaller units, and that those would be announced in the next few weeks

Will they be installing a "Poor Door" like in NYC? 

[BuiltRight]

Will they be installing a "Poor Door" like in NYC? 

Can you expand on what a "Poor Door" is, not familiar with the term? Do you mean like controlled access doors?

[DowntownDan]

Can you expand on what a "Poor Door" is, not familiar with the term? Do you mean like controlled access doors?

Google "poor door" and a million hits will show up.  Here's an example.  Also, to be clear, I was making a joke.

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/30/336322608/new-york-skyscrapers-separate-poor-door-sparks-outrage

[cannon_fodder]

It's a truism that "If you try to make all your streets "A" streets (pedestrian lively), none of them will be." 

Well, that's the problem then. What are the "A" streets? Because we are plopping in various developments everywhere downtown with retail, without retail, midrise, low rise, etc. I don't think the City has ever told a developer "this would be better off here" or "please don't tear down any more buildings TCC."

For the most part, our organic development has actually gone very well. The Hampton, (what I cal)l Tribune II, and the revamped TU/Philbrook/Woody renovations all fit in very well with the area - through no doing of our city planners, zoning, or TDA. Just blind luck.

I'd say we have mini "A streets" along Boston from 7th to 4th (arguable to the plaza at 3rd), along 2nd from City Hall (cinci) to Legends, and along the intersection of Brady and Main +/- 3 blocks. Even arguably along Greenwood and down 1st (most of the Bluedome). Hell, those areas are developing really well actually. But again, I assert it is sans planning.

All that said, I think the proposed lofts will bring more life and potential to the area than the current empty lot. In that there are more empty lots at the moment than proposed developments, I hope they can make some adjustments, fit in better with the neighborhood, and thrive! Even if one apartment block had no ground floor retail, the traffic too and from Cains/Pistol/Pony/new bar (sorry) would still drive the area.

[I'm ignoring the conflict of loud drunk people/bands and potential wealthy semi-retired persons, that's a separate issue]

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Has anyone heard anything about these? I see they changed the floorplan options to include some 1040 ft2 options which I really like (seems to better allow for demographics which would want to buy in to the Brady district). Although the price is now starting at $320k (they say 1200ft2 including the balcony) so basically still aiming at a more premium demographic. It would be great if they could get that into the $200's so they could get younger owners who would be more likely to be happy being next door to a music hot spot.

I hope they idea gets completed although it would be nice if they could be built somewhere else not so close to the Sound Pony. There is a huge empty lot just west of there which seems like a better spot.

[BouldinDomer]

It seems that the Davenports Lofts have been redesigned.



http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/building

[Townsend]

Seems large for that spot.  Are they taking out the storage buildings to the South?

[BouldinDomer]

I am guessing it will fit without taking out the storage buildings (if you look closely, you can see them in the rendering). It looks like they tried to build up instead of out, allowing the new driveway to serve as a buffer between their building and Soundpony. If I am not mistaken, the last version filled almost every inch of the lot.

I might be the only one, but I like it. I hope this project happens.