Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre

[rebound]

Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

[swake]

Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

I've also read articles by people that were in the gang that was attacked. There are many sides to this story.

[Conan71]

Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

There's no doubt it was a huge cluster. 

I'm simply tired of seeing it come up ad nauseum on a Tulsa-centric forum.  I usually ignore the thread, but when CF came up as last contributor, I figured there had to be something to see.  His arguments are usually quite cogent.

[cannon_fodder]

Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

I'm sided with the bikers in this thing. More than likely, the cops over reacted and certainly did mess everything up. True Texas style.

BUT - like Conan said, lets bother discussing it when facts come up. Not when some yayhoo makes BS statements in an entertainment magazine.

I have a primal urge to call BS when I see BS.  It gets me in trouble on facebook all the time... sorry.

[patric]

I'm sided with the bikers in this thing. More than likely, the cops over reacted and certainly did mess everything up. True Texas style.

BUT - like Conan said, lets bother discussing it when facts come up. Not when some yayhoo makes BS statements in an entertainment magazine.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and thats pretty much what we got when Waco authorities publicly responded to a significant event with self-praise and forced silencing of dissent.

Is there BS here?  Absolutely.  Is the can of worms that got opened eventually going to spill into our community?  In some form, likely.
Legal experts across the country are aghast at how badly this was carried out, but in the vacuum of proper reporting, accountability and redress, they know its only a matter of time before the exception becomes the rule.

The federal government didnt barge in with a Ferguson-style finger-wagging because, well, they were there -- and they might possibly have a stain of cruelty on their shining armor.

We forget that the Banditos are a minority (quite literally 1%) and its naive to lump them together with the veterans clubs and the mom-and-pop riding associations, but they make all the noise and therefore make it easy for politicians and crime reporters to prey on the 99%.

Oh, and GQ magazine isnt exactly the Washington Post, but when you consider the usual suspects like CNN didnt bother looking past the PIO's self-serving narrative you have to give credit where credit is due.  If the spokesperson (who is running for sheriff) wants to refute any of that with facts, well...

[Conan71]

I'm still failing to see the relevance of this thread to a forum which is intended to be Tulsa-centric.

[patric]

I'm still failing to see the relevance of this thread to a forum which is intended to be Tulsa-centric.

Well what did the Kentucky Clerk have to do with Tulsa?
Or Boehner's resignation?  Or Trump?  Or Occupy?  Or Bengazi?
These are all topics under this very same "National & International Politics" column you have participated in, so wheres the difference?

Dont you believe in "Trickle-down Politics"?  ;-)

[heironymouspasparagus]

We have a lot of stuff here that isn't directly related to Tulsa proper...the whole international topic pretty much doesn't pertain to our quiet little backwater....Except for how those outside events shape and influence our own home-grown nonsense.... Seems to me like this forum has much more business considering/discussing national issues than say a Mayoral or County Commission candidate talking about abortion or whether Obama/McCain/Cruz has a birth certificate or any other national concern not directly affecting the care and feeding of Tulsa city and county.  (Not talking about any one candidate - there have been many over the years who talk about stuff having nothing to do with city/county administration and operations.)


I guess if one doesn't want to discuss anything beyond the city limits, one can stay out of the national areas.  I feel like going out into the world a little more can only help to try to reduce the isolationist, extremist, tunnel vision we have in such abundance in this state - help get us out of our near fanatical parochialism.


nit-pick
nit-pic
nitpik
nitpick
nitpic
knitpick
knitpik

picnic?

Ok...will stop now....sometimes ya just gotta go down the rabbit hole.

[Conan71]

This isn't politics.  It's about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang. 

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.

[cynical]

Conan, take a look at the myriad political responses to the recent police killings and again say you don't see a political angle here.

Anything is political when it is the fodder for political debate. It is made especially political in this case by the fact that when the police act, they act pursuant to powers and authority given to them by the people, who act through public officials, some elected, some not, who are responding to public pressure that the public officials themselves sometimes instigate through political action. Aside from the lawsuits that result, abuses of public authority is almost purely a political issue.

An element to the Waco case specifically alluded to in this discussion is the militarization of civilian police departments across the country, including our own "dysfunctional" sheriff's department. The alleged use by the police of military weapons in the shootout, however debatable those allegations are to some commenters, bring up public policy issues about the role of law enforcement in a civil society that are inherently political. The trouble a great many of us have with creating and carrying out public policy around overbroad stereotypical identities such "MC gang" is also political. Why would you want to stifle this particular discussion? Frankly, I'm surprised.

This isn't politics.  It's about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang. 

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.

[Vashta Nerada]

This isn't politics.  It's about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang.  

Hook, line and sinker.

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.

The shooting gallery in Waco is every bit as relevant as any of the now-routine school or workplace shootings, but more-so because it was carried out by the very people we trust to protect us from those.
But you want a local angle?  Aside from at least one (possibly two) people from the Tulsa area swept up in the bungled sting, maybe a trip down memory lane would help....
Remember the hysterical press conference warning that bikers were converging on Waco with "grenades and C4 explosives" targeting "high-ranking law enforcement officials and their families" ?
How could you forget a bloodbath like that?   Apparently, easily.  And yet, it sounds somewhat familiar....

Authorities are alerting law enforcement agencies in the Tulsa area about potential retaliation for a shooting at a biker clubhouse, according to an interoffice memo from the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office.  Agents from the FBI's office in Oklahoma City sent a bulletin about the retaliation threat to several agencies in and around Tulsa, officials said.
(The man turned out to be unarmed, just awakened, and had been reaching for his hearing aid when a volley from TCSO's SWAT team killed him.)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/officers-warned-of-revenge-potential/article_fbd0b20e-4bdb-5e15-9c11-4c7000254b2c.html

[Vashta Nerada]

Conan, take a look at the myriad political responses to the recent police killings and again say you don't see a political angle here.

Anything is political when it is the fodder for political debate. It is made especially political in this case by the fact that when the police act, they act pursuant to powers and authority given to them by the people, who act through public officials, some elected, some not, who are responding to public pressure that the public officials themselves sometimes instigate through political action. Aside from the lawsuits that result, abuses of public authority is almost purely a political issue.

An element to the Waco case specifically alluded to in this discussion is the militarization of civilian police departments across the country, including our own "dysfunctional" sheriff's department. The alleged use by the police of military weapons in the shootout, however debatable those allegations are to some commenters, bring up public policy issues about the role of law enforcement in a civil society that are inherently political. The trouble a great many of us have with creating and carrying out public policy around overbroad stereotypical identities such "MC gang" is also political. Why would you want to stifle this particular discussion? Frankly, I'm surprised.

"We began this story thinking it was about Texas gang culture," Penn says. "It turned out to be a story about the Waco justice system."
http://www.texasstandard.org/stories/this-reporter-interviewed-bikers-from-the-waco-shootout-heres-what-he-learned







EX-ATF agent tells CNN he helped agency incite wars between motorcycle clubs:
https://www.facebook.com/Ling/posts/10153361678443323

Just wanted to post this exchange that I had on FB with a former federal law enforcement agent who says that he, along with the BET--Biker Enforcement Team, incited war between the Mongols and Hells Angels that lead to a number of deaths.

Dear Lisa,
I see you're doing a segment on the MONGOLS MC, I am a retired Law Enforcement person who was in the BET Unit=Biker Enforcement Team. I testified at two RICO cases involving the Hells Angels. FYI it was the Dago Unit of the BET team that had targeted the HA's and Mongols to war with each other in he early 70's as our unit tried to get the HA's and Mongols to go to war. Sad to say it worked and Jingles and Red were shot dead on the freeway so long ago.

You are an excellent reporter and hope that on your MONGOLS story dig into there DAGO chapter and how they and the HA's went to war you will see it was due to our BET Team

(Lisa Ling) Do you regret what happened with DAGO? Just curious

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, so very much. One MONGOL i arrested Brant Rudolph Honkanen was the one we (BET) used to get the HA's and Mongols to war, I feel we were deeply responsible for the (BET) HA's Hit on Jingles and Red in DAGO. Then we did some deplorable things from one state to another all in the name of Justice, I recently told George Christie of the HA's who is now a CNN biker consultant , he knew we BET were coming after so many bikers with false evidence. So yes i regret it all, the only thing i do not regret is being able to return Sonny Barger of the HA's his late fathers Bible back to him at the RICO case so long ago. It was a very hard time to be a " Corrupt" cop as a ruse to set up people, make false arrest and ruin innocent peoples lives i will always regret.

(Lisa Ling) Thank you very much for your candor Scott. I met a lot of decent, hard working Mongols while with them. Sure, they have a violent history, but people don't know the whole story.

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, you are very spot on, I too know many Hell's Angels , Mongols and other MC's who do plenty of good, have integrity, and help many in need. I think our government has created an atmosphere of fear to the American People on them. Sad to say i too was part of this mongering that rumor . Glad I'm retired and know the truth.

(Scott Barnes) · Hopefully tonight's show will show the American people many members of the club are caring wonderful decent people.

Dear Lisa,
You did one incredible job on The Mongol Nation, you aired things never before known. Your segment was a home run and actually touched and changed many people who sent me messages on your show.

Even many Feds who taped it and watched it were surprised , you really did a great job. Glad to see this new younger group of club members are much more respectful, honorable and caring than when i went after them in the 70's.

So happy to see the change is positive and is welcomed I hope the Feds will stop targeting them and look at wall street. Thank You for a job well done.

[heironymouspasparagus]

(Lisa Ling) Thank you very much for your candor Scott. I met a lot of decent, hard working Mongols while with them. Sure, they have a violent history, but people don't know the whole story.

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, you are very spot on, I too know many Hell's Angels , Mongols and other MC's who do plenty of good, have integrity, and help many in need. I think our government has created an atmosphere of fear to the American People on them. Sad to say i too was part of this mongering that rumor . Glad I'm retired and know the truth.

(Scott Barnes) · Hopefully tonight's show will show the American people many members of the club are caring wonderful decent people.

Dear Lisa,
You did one incredible job on The Mongol Nation, you aired things never before known. Your segment was a home run and actually touched and changed many people who sent me messages on your show.

Even many Feds who taped it and watched it were surprised , you really did a great job. Glad to see this new younger group of club members are much more respectful, honorable and caring than when i went after them in the 70's.

So happy to see the change is positive and is welcomed I hope the Feds will stop targeting them and look at wall street. Thank You for a job well done.[/i]

Really??   Talk about hook line and sinker....you do realize that the outlaw biker clubs make their living by illegal activities.  And when someone intrudes on the turf, snuffing can be involved??  Like the Mafia.  And other criminal organizations.


We definitely have a long ways to go to get the cops to clean up their act, but the 1% clubs are not choir boys at all.  Like Wall Street....just with patches and leather rather than Armani.

As for doing good, yeah a lot of them do some good.  But the cartels in Mexico and Columbia also do a lot for the little people around them....almost a "Robin Hood" thing....  Doesn't mean they are the optimum solution to help poor people...

[patric]

We definitely have a long ways to go to get the cops to clean up their act, but the 1% clubs are not choir boys at all.  Like Wall Street....just with patches and leather rather than Armani.

As for doing good, yeah a lot of them do some good.  But the cartels in Mexico and Columbia also do a lot for the little people around them....almost a "Robin Hood" thing....  Doesn't mean they are the optimum solution to help poor people...

So what would that justify?   What do you tell the families of the bulk of people inside that restaurant, who were law-abiding people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and no longer have a way to pay their bills because they lost their jobs while waiting weeks or months to get a hearing?

http://www.kcentv.com/story/29213297/exclusive-first-interview-with-bikers-involved-in-twin-peaks-shooting

[heironymouspasparagus]

So what would that justify?   What do you tell the families of the bulk of people inside that restaurant, who were law-abiding people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and no longer have a way to pay their bills because they lost their jobs while waiting weeks or months to get a hearing?

http://www.kcentv.com/story/29213297/exclusive-first-interview-with-bikers-involved-in-twin-peaks-shooting

Not much.  I'm not on the side of "law enforcement" on that deal...like we knew at the beginning, the people there were not 'clubbers'.  Just trying to provide a little balance to VN's hard slant in one direction - there are 1%'ers out there that are hard core. Wasn't the case in Wacko, Texass.

The one big point that VN tries to make is that there is a huge problem with "law enforcement" in this country and something needs to be done to fix it.  At the same time, that doesn't mean criminals are any better than the bad cops.


Speaking of cops...I was doing some farm work late Friday a couple weeks ago, and drove through downtown BA as a 'short cut' to get to the expressway.  Got stopped by the local gendarmes.  They were polite enough I guess, but the whole premise was a bogus crock of carp - they stopped me for not having a license light.  I did have one burned out, but one was fine and way more than bright enough to illuminate the tag - since I have a couple other vehicles that have single bulb versions using the same bulb, I have a valid automotive comparison.  They were 'fishing'.  Since they were younger guys, I can guarantee they have never stopped anyone before with as clean a record as I have, so they couldn't find anything to trump up - still took them over 10 minutes of trying, while I just had to sit and wait.  There is a reason people in the 60's gave them a slang term name related to animals with cloven hooves.