Can Oklahoma learn from Kansas

[swake]

I hesitate posting after the private message from Davazz. I fear he's the same stalker who detoured me from this site a few years ago, found me on a new site, posted my full name and addy and has obviously returned. Chavazz, probably. SIGH!

I don't have the answer about how to replace the money from state income tax. All I know is that my state has none and we aren't in the red. (not bragging, just sayin') Property taxes here are considerably higher then in OK, even though there was a 30% cut when gambling was legalized several years ago. A huge portion of the gambling money was supposed to go to education, but no one seems to believe that actually happened. Naturally, that makes rent higher here then in OK except for the itty bitty towns that have nothing left.

We have no toll roads. Do you have a wheel tax? Ours just went up to $4 per wheel. Our license plates have gone up, but are still cheaper then many states. ($43 for a 2010 Chevy)

The map that was posted does show that gas taxes are much less in OK then here. Cigarette tax is higher here also. So I don't know what a better alternative would be. Just asking.

Davazz is back?

[Red Arrow]

Roads are REALLLLY easy to fund as a use tax. The gas tax is so simple. It inherently charges larger vehicles that are harder on the roads MORE. It inherently charges people that drive MORE. It inherently brings the revenue in where people tend to drive.

I am confident that even if any new/increased gas tax was dedicated to roads that nothing would improve.  Oklahoma seems to have a history of dedicating a new/increased tax and then taking the money already being spent on something and then diverting it to somewhere else.

[Conan71]

Let the private sector do the roads, and if say we want rail between cities we can coordinate, perhaps with federal gov help to do that.  As for State Parks, I am sure the people that are interested in such things (philanthropists, nature/environmental groups. history buffs, etc.) can coordinate something better to do that if they want.

I don't see any scenario where that works.  Too many people expect someone else to pick up their share of the load when it comes to public infrastructure and amenities.

[Jammie]

Davazz is back?

Yes, I've been busy for several days and haven't been here, but when I returned today, I had message number 2 from him. I reported when I got the first message and reported him again.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I haven't been here long enough.... what is a 'davazz' ?

And there is an FOTD in the past that seems to incite strong emotions... same kinda people?

[swake]

I haven't been here long enough.... what is a 'davazz' ?

And there is an FOTD in the past that seems to incite strong emotions... same kinda people?

Similar as in they are/were just terrible trolls that were banned under multiple user names. In FOTD's case, many, many user names. Very different in that FOTD is a very liberal burned out stoner hippy type and Davazz was always pissed if any poors came into his line of vision. I think both are older. I thought Davazz had moved onto some walled off wealthy enclave outside of Tulsa and was going to never be heard from again. I always expect FOTD to turn up again.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't have the answer about how to replace the money from state income tax. All I know is that my state has none and we aren't in the red. (not bragging, just sayin') Property taxes here are considerably higher then in OK, even though there was a 30% cut when gambling was legalized several years ago. A huge portion of the gambling money was supposed to go to education, but no one seems to believe that actually happened. Naturally, that makes rent higher here then in OK except for the itty bitty towns that have nothing left.

We have no toll roads. Do you have a wheel tax? Ours just went up to $4 per wheel. Our license plates have gone up, but are still cheaper then many states. ($43 for a 2010 Chevy)

We have a high hotel tax, but part of it is a "TIF" and goes to fund projects in our cities. I believe the rate is 14%.  Tax here is 7% and part of that is a city tax. The tax on food is 6%. I believe Tulsa's tax is 9%, but I don't know if that includes food or if it's all state tax.

The map that was posted does show that gas taxes are much less in OK then here. Cigarette tax is higher here also. So I don't know what a better alternative would be. Just asking.

I don't know what state you are in, but it is guaranteed that the differences are made up somewhere else besides income tax.  All states have different methods, but it all gets to the goal of funding the necessary (and some frivolous, unnecessary) functions.

Property tax is one that I consider to be an abomination since everything about it is taxed along the way - repeatedly - before starting the ongoing taxation.  But I also don't have a better way for funding the things they fund....  I have family that is literally being priced out of their houses - two of them from places that they built by hand, stick by stick, with every member of the family visiting from time to time to hammer a nail or put on a shingle or install cabinets or some other contribution.  Paid the onerous sales taxes on all house components.  Paid the retail price for the help that was hired - concrete work for footings - which included a taxed component.  Paid for tools, supplies, etc - all taxed.  And then get to pay ongoing taxes forever just to be able to stay and sit in the place they bought, paid for, and built 30+ years ago.  It is the American version of feudal Europe - ya gotta pay the "Lords and Ladies".  At least we aren't taxed to the point of being starved out of our country like so many Irish were.... yet...

One has already moved just to avoid the obscene escalation of taxes.  They were in a "classic" situation like the small towns around Tulsa.  People would come out to the rural areas, "love" what they saw in terms of lifestyle in a small town environment - getting away from the 'hustle and bustle' of 'big city life'.  Leave the crime behind.  Leave the city schools behind.  Leave the traffic behind - that sure backfired on all!  And so on.  Then move there with 100,000 of their closest friends bringing with them all the garbage they professed to desire to leave behind.  HOA anyone?  

Or 67 acres of cow pasture that has been brought into the city limits of Broken Arrow against the will of all the people in the area, so they can pay a water bill that doesn't provide city water...or city sewer...or city trash collection.  And the added benefit of now finding themselves INSIDE the area where they MUST keep the pasture mowed to less than 12" height or face consequences - fines.  Since the new-from-the-city-clown doesn't like pasture!  Tell me again why they moved to the country??  Any city slicker ever actually look at pasture?  Or have a clue as to what it is?  Or what it is for??  (Clues; making hay and feeding cattle.)

The people who have been there for decades are being bulldozed by the newbies who came out to make their Bass Pro Shop, and Rhema Cult, and what is becoming First Baptist Cult.  Small town America has been destroyed by the plague of locusts fleeing the city.  Broken Arrow.  Jenks.  Bixby.  Owasso.  Sapulpa.  Sand Springs.

Goes totally to the "growth for growth's sake" I and others have talked about for years.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Similar as in they are/were just terrible trolls that were banned under multiple user names. In FOTD's case, many, many user names. Very different in that FOTD is a very liberal burned out stoner hippy type and Davazz was always pissed if any poors came into his line of vision. I think both are older. I thought Davazz had moved onto some walled off wealthy enclave outside of Tulsa and was going to never be heard from again. I always expect FOTD to turn up again.

Wonder if FOTD was also Teatownclown...?  Haven't seen him around for a while either.

As for the wealthy enclave - ha!  That's topical - see my previous note!  He is one of "those" guys....

[swake]

Wonder if FOTD was also Teatownclown...?  Haven't seen him around for a while either.

As for the wealthy enclave - ha!  That's topical - see my previous note!  He is one of "those" guys....

Yes, he was Teatownclown and many others. Many of his names were Grateful Dead related.

[AquaMan]

That's what I like about this forum. Non-judgmental, seldom into name calling, open to different views and always welcoming to all generations including "older people". Wait. Sorry, wrong forum.

I thought all those named monikers were pretty entertaining and occasionally enlightening. Now Friendly Bear? Not so much.

[cannon_fodder]

I think Friendly Bear was an FOTD (Friend of the Devil). Aoxomoxoa. Etc. Friendly Bear...



Anyway, cities grow. Things change. It would be up to those small towns to protect their growth with smart development. Same with the rural property owners. If you buy land "in the country" but "close enough" to the city, it is just a matter of time before it becomes city land. Now, if you buy land in Adair County, or whatever, you have some confidence that you can remain rural for your life. But if you work in the city, shop in the city, and recreate in the city--- all you really want is to flirt with rural life and be close enough to the city.

What happened to learning form Kansas?

[Townsend]

That's what I like about this forum. Non-judgmental, seldom into name calling, open to different views and always welcoming to all generations including "older people". Wait. Sorry, wrong forum.

I thought all those named monikers were pretty entertaining and occasionally enlightening. Now Friendly Bear? Not so much.

FOTD and Davazz had tendencies to PM some crazy.

As far as the other stuff, I do judge, I name call, I decide my own views and scoff at others' and I take issue with people, young or old, being on my lawn.

[Townsend]

What happened to learning form Kansas?

You answered that already.

CAN we learn? Sure.

WILL we learn? Nope.

Kansas and Wisconsin followed a hardcore conservative model trumpeted by Texas. Both have met object failure, financial ruin, and a lack of investment interest by desirable employers.  Intel, MS, Apple, major financial institutions, and corporate HQs look for stability and quality of life as much as cheap labor, cheap taxes, and cheap regulation.  If they wanted the Texas model, they'd just be in Texas which works do to a self sustaining loop... Same reason silicon valley works and lower Manhattan. Kansas can't be lower Manhattan, and it isn't Texas.

Look at the juxtaposition between hardcore conservative Wisconsin (financial and economic ruin) and moderate Minnesota (prospering).

But no... We won't learn. We will try to out fail them.

[AquaMan]

FOTD and Davazz had tendencies to PM some crazy.

As far as the other stuff, I do judge, I name call, I decide my own views and scoff at others' and I take issue with people, young or old, being on my lawn.

You are my brother, father , grandfather or father in law from the sixties. In personality anyway.

[swake]

I think Friendly Bear was an FOTD (Friend of the Devil). Aoxomoxoa. Etc. Friendly Bear...

Uranus, Friendly Bear, Aoxomoxoa, Teatownclown, FOTD, there were others I can't recall now. All the same person.  I didn't have a problem with his views and actually agreed with him more than not. But his overwhelming shtick was unhinged mocking condescension with a dash of racism. He was very tiring.

Davazz on the other hand was bigoted and elitist. His overwhelming shtick also was unhinged mocking condescension but his version had a whole helping of thinly veiled racism. Man he hated himself some poor people, usually non-white poor people.

Then there was Pluto/Shadows. Poor Neptune was surrounded.

Anyway, back on topic.

Rock Chalk!

We are talking Kansas, right?