Vision Extension - IDL Removal/Demolition

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I you look at maps it says Osage Reservation, not Osage County. The Osage own the land, not the state, and not the feds, they got the land before statehood. They own all mineral rights as well. The land owned by non Osage were probably negotiated with the tribe for oil, with royalties being paid to the tribe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_County,_Oklahoma

[cynical]

Whatever the maps say, Osage County not an Indian reservation. It's my recollection that when Oklahoma was admitted to statehood, one of the conditions was that the tribal lands had to be allotted to individual tribal members. All of the tribes complied including the Osages, but the Osage tribe retained the mineral rights to the tribal lands. Those mineral rights are held by the tribe itself rather than being divided up as in the remainder of the state. I doubt that there are any Indian law issues wrt to placement of a highway in Osage County, though there may be arguments with the tribe should the construction company try to use any building materials such as crushed rock "harvested" from Osage County.

The status of surface and mineral rights in Osage County were the key issue in two recent lawsuits. One involved the status of the Osage casinos. I don't remember many of the details, but about five years ago the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals rejected the tribe's argument that Osage County was a reservation, holding that the Osage Allotment Act of 1906 dissolved the reservation. I recall the chief at the time not bothering to place the casino locations in trust because of his mistaken belief that the tribe still had its reservation. I think he was removed from office by the tribal council.

The tribe's mineral rights were involved in recent efforts to halt the spread of wind farms in Osage County. The tribe by that time knew better than to argue that it had anything to argue about regarding surface rights, but argued that the construction crews had violated the tribes mineral rights by using gravel dug up from the wind farm sites to construct the pads on which the turbines were installed, hence my statement about crushed rock above.

I you look at maps it says Osage Reservation, not Osage County. The Osage own the land, not the state, and not the feds, they got the land before statehood. They own all mineral rights as well. The land owned by non Osage were probably negotiated with the tribe for oil, with royalties being paid to the tribe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_County,_Oklahoma

[swake]

Whatever the maps say, Osage County not an Indian reservation. It's my recollection that when Oklahoma was admitted to statehood, one of the conditions was that the tribal lands had to be allotted to individual tribal members. All of the tribes complied including the Osages, but the Osage tribe retained the mineral rights to the tribal lands. Those mineral rights are held by the tribe itself rather than being divided up as in the remainder of the state. I doubt that there are any Indian law issues wrt to placement of a highway in Osage County, though there may be arguments with the tribe should the construction company try to use any building materials such as crushed rock "harvested" from Osage County.

The status of surface and mineral rights in Osage County were the key issue in two recent lawsuits. One involved the status of the Osage casinos. I don't remember many of the details, but about five years ago the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals rejected the tribe's argument that Osage County was a reservation, holding that the Osage Allotment Act of 1906 dissolved the reservation. I recall the chief at the time not bothering to place the casino locations in trust because of his mistaken belief that the tribe still had its reservation. I think he was removed from office by the tribal council.

The tribe's mineral rights were involved in recent efforts to halt the spread of wind farms in Osage County. The tribe by that time knew better than to argue that it had anything to argue about regarding surface rights, but argued that the construction crews had violated the tribes mineral rights by using gravel dug up from the wind farm sites to construct the pads on which the turbines were installed, hence my statement about crushed rock above.

John Red Eagle was the chief and you are correct.

[AquaMan]

 In fact, large parcels of land abutting Osage oil lands across from Central High School at 33rd west avenue and Edison were sold off last year by Tulsa Public Schools. Nor did Osage ownership hinder growth of Tulsa in that direction. The land directly north of the river includes some of the oldest homes in Tulsa yet it was among the areas apportioned to tribes forced into the state. Gilcrease Hills is a large sprawling development on the north end of Osage land. The real hindrance to growth in that direction was the oil industry barons choosing to locate south of downtown nearer to their refineries. Later, the fear of racism and crime came into play.

I was surprised to hear that any of the lands were designated "reservation". Interesting history. Especially the recent events.

[Vision 2025]

In fact, large parcels of land abutting Osage oil lands across from Central High School at 33rd west avenue and Edison were sold off last year by Tulsa Public Schools. Nor did Osage ownership hinder growth of Tulsa in that direction. The land directly north of the river includes some of the oldest homes in Tulsa yet it was among the areas apportioned to tribes forced into the state. Gilcrease Hills is a large sprawling development on the north end of Osage land. The real hindrance to growth in that direction was the oil industry barons choosing to locate south of downtown nearer to their refineries. Later, the fear of racism and crime came into play.

I was surprised to hear that any of the lands were designated "reservation". Interesting history. Especially the recent events.

Osage County represents a Mineral Reservation (what would now likely be called a minerals trust), administered by the BIA. 

According to my Dad who was here then, most chose to develop where there was easier transportation (flatter land, no river crossings) and also away from the predominant N/S wind direction with respect to where the refineries were located along the river.

[AquaMan]

Osage County represents a Mineral Reservation (what would now likely be called a minerals trust), administered by the BIA. 

According to my Dad who was here then, most chose to develop where there was easier transportation (flatter land, no river crossings) and also away from the predominant N/S wind direction with respect to where the refineries were located along the river.

My Dad was also here then and was in the construction trades (a painter). He was born in North Tulsa, grew up along the Sand Springs line (Charles Page), Red Fork and near downtown. There were trolleys moving people to the suburbs by the early twenties (Sand Springs via Charles Page, Whittier Square and Kendall College) and a railroad line out to Sapulpa to bring in refinery workers. There were bridges in place as well. Lots of transportation available by bus, train and trolley in those areas. There were large homes just north and west of downtown that rivaled the ones along south Boulder and in Riverview. Once Skelly moved to 21st and the reality of the race riots sunk in, the demand for housing by and near oil wealth changed the direction of growth. It was a good thing to be near the movers and shakers. Big dollar development to the north and west slowed. Development north tended to be more modest and labor oriented.

No doubt the prevailing N/S winds played a big part as well and flooding issues still abound out north, but when the refineries are stinkin'....the whole dang down is stinkin'!

[cannon_fodder]

I've actually researched the question of why Osage County is a gap in development:

1) The Osage were seen as more hostile to white settlement, even into the 1900s.

Purportedly intentionally so - to the extent that they sought out land that was unsuitable for white farming techniques (250k/1.5mil arable land in Osage County). They'd been moved too many times, and wanted to avoid it again. From their perspective, more white people = more chance of the tribe being removed . So get land they don't want and discourage development. (or so the story goes, this is more legend than fact)

The real difference is highlighted by the fact that the Osage Nation purchased the land in 1870, they were not residents on land held in trust for them by Uncle Sam (like everyone else).  So for a long time the tribe controlled the land outright with few areas set aside for platted cities, they had leeway under the Dawes Act. Allotment of tribal land did not happen in Osage County until 1906 and wasn't finished until 1909. The allotments were 660 acres (as opposed to 160) and many allotments were not homesteaded, so ranchers were able to grab huge tracks of land much easier than other parts of the state.

That control was central to their identity and certainly contributed to development difficulties early on (or helped, depending on ones perspective). Control of their land remains a strong belief among the Osage today, even though most has been transferred out of the families in fee long ago (hence the belief they maintained their reservation rights, a lawsuit that came down more to "status quo" and practicality than legality as I understand it. Legally, the Osage may have been right, but it would have undone 140 years of land transactions and development).

As mentioned, the tribe retained all mineral rights, all leasing had to go through the tribe - as a result, things got ugly as wildcaters extorted, blackmailed, and murdered tribal members to gain access - leading to even more hesitancy to develop during the boom of the 1920s (it got so ugly that Congress passed a law saying headrights couldn't be inherited by a non Osage).  

The effect of these factors is easily demonstrated by a looking at a map even today. Tulsa, Bartlesville, and Ponca City all ring Osage County, yet the County remains without a strong economic center. The major roads all avoid Osage County. Even the rural road network in Osage isn't up to par with most other Oklahoma Counties. Development avoided the political uncertainty of Osage County.

http://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=OS004


2) The terrain is not as friendly to development. South represented the Glenpool, flat open territory, and easy river crossings. North was hilly, had bluffs along the river, and had less easily accessible oil early in the development of the area (particularly with the Nation holding rights), oil didn't boom outright in Osage County until the 1930s (which is when the population peaked at 47k, and has never reached that level again). Even the transportation networks were designed to ferry people east and west, and south... another factor discouraging development in Osage County.

3) POLITICS. According to the Tulsa City Council's "A History of Annexation" development outside of Tulsa County was avoided by the City of Tulsa for a long time to avoid having other County Commissioners interfere with tax rates, budgeting, roads, etc. The City of Tulsa didn't annex anything outside of Tulsa County until 1973. Keep in mind, suburbs barely a thing in Tulsa even in 1973 --- Broken Arrow had a population under 15,000 people. NOT being part of Tulsa really hindered development.

http://www.tulsacouncil.org/media/79331/Annexation%20History.pdf

4) Race. In 1973 when the city began annexing sections and developments started to grow in Osage County, the trend was well underway of white people moving away from the core of the city. North Tulsa, Turley, and Gilcrease Hills remain overwhelmingly black to this day. Once that trend got started in those areas, development stalled and hasn't really started back up since.

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/  (an amazing map)

Happy to be corrected on anything, but that is what my research and the cited sources taught me...


/tangent

[AquaMan]

Very interesting. I would think #3 was the largest hindrance. Without support for infrastructure provided by the city of Tulsa whose water system, judicial system and police and fire departments would be necessary for growth, the area wasn't as attractive as others.

The Osage are still wary of non tribal members from my personal experience. No matter how wealthy they are you aren't going to find any money with pictures of Jackson in their wallets.

[swake]

The Osage are still wary of non tribal members from my personal experience. No matter how wealthy they are you aren't going to find any money with pictures of Jackson in their wallets.

What in the world are you babbling about now? Andrew Jackson isn't popular with any natives but I've never met anyone that refuses to use a particular bill. Maybe there are a few AIM people that won't but it's very, very far from common. As for the comment on the Osage being wary, you are just making crap up.

[AquaMan]

What in the world are you babbling about now? Andrew Jackson isn't popular with any natives but I've never met anyone that refuses to use a particular bill. Maybe there are a few AIM people that won't but it's very, very far from common. As for the comment on the Osage being wary, you are just making crap up.

Frickin' moron.

Jim Gray. Shared office space with him. Osage Indian. Ran for tribal chief. Published Osage newspaper. Receives monthly checks for Osage Indian headrights. Shared that very information with me. Practically quoted him. Look him up.

[swake]

Frickin' moron.

Jim Gray. Shared office space with him. Osage Indian. Ran for tribal chief. Published Osage newspaper. Receives monthly checks for Osage Indian headrights. Shared that very information with me. Practically quoted him. Look him up.

Jim was Chief. The Gray family is an important Osage family and I know a few of them. I like his older brother Andrew a lot, he has been very kind to my kids over the years.

I'm not going to get into Osage tribal politics here and in print, this cuts too close to home for me. But trust me you remain wrong.

[AquaMan]

Why would I trust someone who speaks to me in such a disrespectful and demeaning manner?

Jim is a friend of mine as well. His wife cared for our youngest along with his. I care not for the politics you fear. Jim and his brother Louis were very forthcoming as to the mindset of Native Americans in general towards non tribals and even the animosity the tribes have towards each other. Thus his remarks about Jackson. I was surprised at the time since I had never known it existed to such an extent. Even though I was in publishing and advertising at the time, we shared an office and services and my great grandmother was full blood Cherokee, I was politely refused participation in his publication because of the negative impact my white status would bring. I understood though.

I still hold him and his wife in high regard though I haven't seen him since the mid 2000's.

[swake]

Why would I trust someone who speaks to me in such a disrespectful and demeaning manner?

Jim is a friend of mine as well. His wife cared for our youngest along with his. I care not for the politics you fear. Jim and his brother Louis were very forthcoming as to the mindset of Native Americans in general towards non tribals and even the animosity the tribes have towards each other. Thus his remarks about Jackson. I was surprised at the time since I had never known it existed to such an extent. Even though I was in publishing and advertising at the time, we shared an office and services and my great grandmother was full blood Cherokee, I was politely refused participation in his publication because of the negative impact my white status would bring. I understood though.

I still hold him and his wife in high regard though I haven't seen him since the mid 2000's.

I know Louis as well. And Margo.

Every white guy claims he has a full blood Cherokee great grandmother. Usually a princess.

[Hoss]

I know Louis as well. And Margo.

Every white guy claims he has a full blood Cherokee great grandmother. Usually a princess.

I sort of have to agree with AM here.  No reason to get pissy IMO.

And I did have a full-blood Cherokee 3rd great grandmother. I also have Lakota Sioux in there.  Guess what?  I don't have a roll card.  I'm likely more Indian than many in this state that do have one given the quorum requirement the Cherokees use to have it (1/512...are you kidding me)?.

[AquaMan]

Swake what kind of proof would you consider adequate? I have photos, my mother's decade long ancestry research and my memories of her. She was a Chilcoat. Not exactly a white man's name. She had a wonderful Cherokee face and was quite clever. She refused to sign the rolls since she noticed her fellow tribal members tended to disappear after signing.

Yeah, I'm old, 64. Yes, I rely on stories to make my points and because I am old I have lots of them. No, that does not reduce their veracity or importance. Yes, I should reduce them to simple phrases in caps to make them more digestible for 35 year olds. Yes, inferences of no credibility and ageist remarks about babbling do piss me off.