Vision Extension - IDL Removal/Demolition

[DTowner]

I'd settle for covering up and building a park over the east leg of the IDL between 3rd & 6th.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

It is an important 50 feet. Just think of the safety of keeping cars and people apart.

It would be prime real estate in Tulsa as proposed. The land value would almost equal anything in Tulsa County.

I think it is an interesting idea. It could be a blend of built and new green space together in a great spot for both.

How about we wait until a few more of the hundreds of empty lots inside the IDL are developed? So many are just big empty parking lots with no foreseeable plans to use those and no one lining up with high offers to buy them. There is no reason to spend millions for a small strip of land in Tulsa! This idea is ludicrous at this stage of Tulsa downtown. If it is not economically feasible to turn a parking lot into a building, it makes no sense to spend tens of millions to bury highways or cover the IDL.

Of all of the issues for making Tulsa more walkable and downtown more lively, the IDL is the least of those right now. Stuff is happening and the Brady and Blue Dome are being developed. Give it 10-20 years and maybe some of that will move to the southern part of the IDL. Until that area is full of buildings and more density (and not the largest parking crater in the US), an ambitious buried highway doesn't make sense. That would be awesome if we were anywhere near that but we aren't.

[SXSW]

There is some momentum building toward removing 244 through Greenwood.  At-grade boulevard along the current highway path next to ONEOK Field to Elgin then restore the street grid from Elgin to Denver.  The second phase should be removing the east leg of the IDL and restoring Madison Ave as an at-grade boulevard.

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/i-244-through-greenwood-listed-national-freeways-without-futures-report#stream/0

[Dspike]

TYPROS Urbanist Crew hosted a presentation on potential partial IDL removal, complete with maps and some data. Definitely very preliminary, but will be interesting to see where it goes:

NPR article on presentation: https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/typros-urbanists-recommend-plan-tearing-down-i-244-through-greenwood?fbclid=IwAR07FSSv6itPuTrZeXgTH8U4KEFbG1Z9zc5Qm9SMm7_iy4u_sucPAxO9vro#stream/0

Zoom presentation itself: https://www.facebook.com/TulsaUrbanists/videos/304242648068883

[Tulsan]

TYPROS Urbanist Crew hosted a presentation on potential partial IDL removal, complete with maps and some data. Definitely very preliminary, but will be interesting to see where it goes:

NPR article on presentation: https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/typros-urbanists-recommend-plan-tearing-down-i-244-through-greenwood?fbclid=IwAR07FSSv6itPuTrZeXgTH8U4KEFbG1Z9zc5Qm9SMm7_iy4u_sucPAxO9vro#stream/0

Zoom presentation itself: https://www.facebook.com/TulsaUrbanists/videos/304242648068883

Very cool. 

[Dspike]

The presenters at the TYPROS Urbanist meeting on IDL removal now have a website up and a FB page for anyone wanting to follow along or offer support.

http://www.transformtulsa.org/

https://www.facebook.com/transformtulsa

[shavethewhales]

I'd be curious to see an actual traffic model be built around this suggestion. See what it looks like when 20,000 people are trying to get in and out of downtown for Tulsa Tough or a major concert or something. This plan goes way beyond lowering the greenwood 244 segment to basically removing the vast majority of highways serving the downtown area. I know urbanists hate highways, but they do actually serve a purpose and can make areas more attractive by making them easier to get in and out of. Getting rid of 444/75 is probably going too far. That seems like a pretty major trucking and commuting route.

[SXSW]

I'd be curious to see an actual traffic model be built around this suggestion. See what it looks like when 20,000 people are trying to get in and out of downtown for Tulsa Tough or a major concert or something. This plan goes way beyond lowering the greenwood 244 segment to basically removing the vast majority of highways serving the downtown area. I know urbanists hate highways, but they do actually serve a purpose and can make areas more attractive by making them easier to get in and out of. Getting rid of 444/75 is probably going too far. That seems like a pretty major trucking and commuting route.

Agree - I would rather focus on first removing 244 in the IDL then work toward removing 244 entirely all the way to Hwy 11.  It's completely redundant with the Hwy 11/Gilcrease Expressway Loop especially once it's entirely completed where you can go all the way around across the river and connect to I-44.  If you take out the 244 leg though you have to keep the 444 leg on the east side of the IDL as there would not be any access to Hwy 75. 

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Based on the length of time it took to extend 169 from 21st to 51st and to extend the Gilcrease from Sheridan to Peoria, none of this will happen for the next 20 some years.

[swake]

I would support removing the north leg of the IDL, or even better, rebuilding it underground. Cost wise, I am sure the only option is removal. Removing I-244 east of the IDL is dumb and won't happen. Gilcrease isn't a viable alternative for I-244, in either efficiency or capacity.

One thing to be very careful of, if the north leg is removed, keep ODOT away from the replacement. Don't replace it with any kind of "boulevard" or anything like that. Just restore the original grid.

[SXSW]

One thing to be very careful of, if the north leg is removed, keep ODOT away from the replacement. Don't replace it with any kind of "boulevard" or anything like that. Just restore the original grid.

Agree, just go to OKC and see what ODOT did with the boulevard that replaced I-40.  They should've just restored the street grid.

[Vision 2025]

I would support removing the north leg of the IDL, or even better, rebuilding it underground. Cost wise, I am sure the only option is removal. Removing I-244 east of the IDL is dumb and won't happen. Gilcrease isn't a viable alternative for I-244, in either efficiency or capacity.

One thing to be very careful of, if the north leg is removed, keep ODOT away from the replacement. Don't replace it with any kind of "boulevard" or anything like that. Just restore the original grid.

Wow, the logistics and surface losses required to accomplish such a re-configuration, would be epic.  I can see easily need full-width transitions to and from 75 then have to widen 75 and then there's the transition onto the 244 River bridge and back to 412 from the BA (nothing but a major public hospital in the way).  

Might be a challenge for the route to keep it's interstate highway designation and related funding, realistically a below grade section appears to me to be the only viable highway methodology.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Wow, the logistics and surface losses required to accomplish such a re-configuration, would be epic.  I can see easily need full-width transitions to and from 75 then have to widen 75 and then there's the transition onto the 244 River bridge and back to 412 from the BA (nothing but a major public hospital in the way).  

Might be a challenge for the route to keep it's interstate highway designation and related funding, realistically a below grade section appears to me to be the only viable highway methodology.

IIRC 244 was built as a spur of I-44 with the "2" designating that it routed through town. This was built as a transportation corridor from Sand Springs (and north central OK from I-35) to the Port Of Catoosa.

After State Highway 33 was decommissioned and Highway 412 was completed to NW Arkansas, it made the transportation corridor viable from what is now I-49 to i-35. I know people that nicknamed it the Walmart Highway because it gave Bentonville better access to the west and north once the trucks get to I-35.

It gives NW Arkansas a connection to I-70 in Salina KS without having to go through Kansas City.

[SXSW]

IIRC 244 was built as a spur of I-44 with the "2" designating that it routed through town. This was built as a transportation corridor from Sand Springs (and north central OK from I-35) to the Port Of Catoosa.

After State Highway 33 was decommissioned and Highway 412 was completed to NW Arkansas, it made the transportation corridor viable from what is now I-49 to i-35. I know people that nicknamed it the Walmart Highway because it gave Bentonville better access to the west and north once the trucks get to I-35.

It gives NW Arkansas a connection to I-70 in Salina KS without having to go through Kansas City.

You have to believe Wal-Mart, Tyson and JB Hunt are likely behind the push to upgrade 412 to an interstate as it significantly improves transportation connections to NW Arkansas.  Oklahoma benefits but not as much as Arkansas, and Tulsa being in the middle benefits as well.  I like the outdoor recreational opportunities in far NE Oklahoma and NW Arkansas so any way you can access them easier and faster is great for me.  412 is like Denver's I-70 for people in Tulsa, our highway to the mountains, lakes and rivers in the Ozarks.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

You have to believe Wal-Mart, Tyson and JB Hunt are likely behind the push to upgrade 412 to an interstate as it significantly improves transportation connections to NW Arkansas.  Oklahoma benefits but not as much as Arkansas, and Tulsa being in the middle benefits as well.  I like the outdoor recreational opportunities in far NE Oklahoma and NW Arkansas so any way you can access them easier and faster is great for me.  412 is like Denver's I-70 for people in Tulsa, our highway to the mountains, lakes and rivers in the Ozarks.

Agreed. Turn 412 into an interstate and NW Arkansas will have short access times with I-49 to I-44, I-35 and I-40. Transportation has changed so much that the old hub and spoke system is pretty much gone and businesses are building distribution centers everywhere. Walmart built the model years ago, and everybody is moving that way. From 2011 to 2018 I made a bunch of trips through central California between Redding and Bakersfield and in the towns along CA-99 and I-5 while still being major agriculture centers have diversified with Amazon, Walmart, Cabela's/Bass Pro, and most other major businesses.