Iron Gate

[DowntownDan]

The part that bothers me is the idea that the tracks at 3rd and Peoria is some sort of urban mecca that would be destroyed if you let poor folks in.  If this had happened at 3rd and Peoria it would not have harmed what's going on at 6th or 11th street.  You think that the Vault, or Elote, or Tavolo, or the Courtyard, or the Daily Grill are going to suffer because of what happened at the current location?  Don't think so.  The idea that we need to isolate poor people to the area downtown by the jail is what bothers me about this whole situation.  

[Breadburner]

Its odd isn't it? Dozens of people fall to the ground convulsing, flailing, and requiring medical attention and our response is ..."not so good for downtown PR or retail bidness" instead of genuine concern for an assault perpetrated by drug dealers that may extend to all over town.

Of course when you see the same thing on a Friday night around 1am next to a string of bars in Brady? That's just the nature of adult partying. The difference being few people see the staggering drunks at that time of morning and its old news to the press unless one dies.

Thats not even remotely close to reality.....

[patric]

The part that bothers me is the idea that the tracks at 3rd and Peoria is some sort of urban mecca that would be destroyed if you let poor folks in.  If this had happened at 3rd and Peoria it would not have harmed what's going on at 6th or 11th street.  You think that the Vault, or Elote, or Tavolo, or the Courtyard, or the Daily Grill are going to suffer because of what happened at the current location?  Don't think so.  The idea that we need to isolate poor people to the area downtown by the jail is what bothers me about this whole situation.  

Ill have to dig for the references, but I believe the stated intention was something along the lines of  "placing social services closer to the people who need them"

[swake]

Ill have to dig for the references, but I believe the stated intention was something along the lines of  "placing social services closer to the people who need them"

Correct.

The question  shouldn't be on where to choose a location for people to be convulsing on sidewalks, but how to keep that from happening at all.

1, we need to provide judgement free housing to the homeless, 2, we need to have social services easily available to the residents of that housing that do things like help them get clean. We should try to prevent the OD, and failing that, have the OD happen in a safer location for the victim than a sidewalk.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Correct.

The question  shouldn't be on where to choose a location for people to be convulsing on sidewalks, but how to keep that from happening at all.

1, we need to provide judgement free housing to the homeless, 2, we need to have social services easily available to the residents of that housing that do things like help them get clean. We should try to prevent the OD, and failing that, have the OD happen in a safer location for the victim than a sidewalk.

Did we just come full circle here....?

If there are people who won't make use of the currently available resources, how are we to get them to make use of other (new) available resources?

Will it be a forced situation?  Like a jail sentence equivalent for being homeless?

By judgement free, is it meant there are no rules/regulations/behavioral requirements to living there?  And if there are rules, isn't that kinda the whole point of why they don't make use of the currently available resources (that do have rules) ??

[AquaMan]

Well Townsend, I have been there. Experienced the sight of passed out people in Brady, spewing their guts onto the street, peeing on buildings, acting a fool, stumbling in high heels till they collapsed and rambling incoherently. Both from alcohol and/or drugs. Neither group started out wanting to get sloppy drunk or OD'd. They just wanted to have a little fun or escape the dreary reality of their lives. Make note, It is just as illegal to be public drunk or urinate in public as it is to be OD'd and convulsing.

I drove a party bus throughout the Brady, East End, Brookside, Cherry and the suburbs. It was fun. Fun to watch anyway. Just reporting the facts. You folks are making the judgments.

[Townsend]

Well Townsend, I have been there. Experienced the sight of passed out people in Brady, spewing their guts onto the street, peeing on buildings, acting a fool, stumbling in high heels till they collapsed and rambling incoherently. Both from alcohol and/or drugs. Neither group started out wanting to get sloppy drunk or OD'd. They just wanted to have a little fun or escape the dreary reality of their lives. Make note, It is just as illegal to be public drunk or urinate in public as it is to be OD'd and convulsing.

I drove a party bus throughout the Brady, East End, Brookside, Cherry and the suburbs. It was fun. Fun to watch anyway. Just reporting the facts. You folks are making the judgments.

I was talking about this particular occurrence.  Were you there?

I've seen the same things you've seen.

Aquaman - You need to get off your high horse and relax on this a bit.  I've made no judgement.  I've only said what I thought.  I'd rather things like this didn't occur.

Railing on me for this is crap and you need to back the hell off.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Did we just come full circle here....?

If there are people who won't make use of the currently available resources, how are we to get them to make use of other (new) available resources?

Will it be a forced situation?  Like a jail sentence equivalent for being homeless?

By judgement free, is it meant there are no rules/regulations/behavioral requirements to living there?  And if there are rules, isn't that kinda the whole point of why they don't make use of the currently available resources (that do have rules) ??

It is not forced. The rules are pretty basic and they don't have to quit drugs/drinking to get a home. The idea is a home precedes being able to get sober and become a part of society. One article said ""There are a few 'trappers and hunters' out there who really do choose what they call freedom." but for about 85% percent stick with it. There are still plenty of problems, but having them out in the streets just makes it worse (like the story which got this discussion going).

Utah has cut chronic homelessness by 91%! Furthermore, it actually saves money. The $8000/year they spend on housing is partially paid by section 8 and partially paid by charities. The burden on the system is lowered and the big savings are in healthcare/emergency response costs. Jail is another large cost.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah

Cities in the US need to do something about this. After the success Utah has had, I think Tulsa needs to follow suit. It is a proven model at this point after ~10+ years. Tulsa has just over 700 homeless. Based on the amount donated to homeless charities, providing housing would be feasible, especially considering section 8 vouchers and other grants available for this type of thing. If anyone knows of any organization pursuing this sort of thing in Tulsa, please let me know.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It is not forced. The rules are pretty basic and they don't have to quit drugs/drinking to get a home. The idea is a home precedes being able to get sober and become a part of society. One article said ""There are a few 'trappers and hunters' out there who really do choose what they call freedom." but for about 85% percent stick with it. There are still plenty of problems, but having them out in the streets just makes it worse (like the story which got this discussion going).

Utah has cut chronic homelessness by 91%! Furthermore, it actually saves money. The $8000/year they spend on housing is partially paid by section 8 and partially paid by charities. The burden on the system is lowered and the big savings are in healthcare/emergency response costs. Jail is another large cost.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah

Cities in the US need to do something about this. After the success Utah has had, I think Tulsa needs to follow suit. It is a proven model at this point after ~10+ years. Tulsa has just over 700 homeless. Based on the amount donated to homeless charities, providing housing would be feasible, especially considering section 8 vouchers and other grants available for this type of thing. If anyone knows of any organization pursuing this sort of thing in Tulsa, please let me know.

Don't get me wrong - I am all about trying something different, 'cause what we are doing now ain't working.  Hasn't been for at least as long as I have been alive. Just like the whole war on drugs thing - that ain't working either, and it is closely connected to the homeless situation in many instances.  We need to start trying something beyond just giving tax cuts to rich people and fighting the wrong wars!!  (War on drugs in this case....)

[AquaMan]

I was talking about this particular occurrence.  Were you there?

I've seen the same things you've seen.

Aquaman - You need to get off your high horse and relax on this a bit.  I've made no judgement.  I've only said what I thought.  I'd rather things like this didn't occur.

Railing on me for this is crap and you need to back the hell off.

Chill. I used words from several posts that caught my attention. I used your name because it was the latest one. Often folks don't reply if you don't do that. And though I am intrigued that someone thought I changed direction of this thread it hardly fits. I just responded with the truth I see and followed the drift.

I am not on any crusade, just noting how bizarre it is that this entire thread ignores the fact that drug abuse, alcohol abuse, beggars and homelessness are a city wide plague, not associated with any one organization or location. To not admit that is indication of other motives. Or that it can be controlled by limiting those who offer them assistance.

This is weird. Both K-2 and rum with pirates on the label are legal drugs with similar outcomes when carelessly used. Available at retail establishments. Yet the idiots passed out from K-2 are referred to as OD's while the others are just partiers. I doubt the K-2 users knew they were overusing their drug. What instructions indicated proper usage?  Open, snort or smoke, pass out? Seems a great legal case for going after the manufacturer and convenience stores offering it (one I know of sells it near a grade school).

Be honest. No judgments being made? Seriously, when dozens of people pass out in Brady no one says they OD'd on alcohol. 28 people pass out on the street from some drug use and suddenly Iron Gate gets the bad PR. How about we castigate PSO since some happened there? 

Yet the discussion here is about what kinds of people Iron Gate attracts, not what kinds of people Legends attracts and their effect on retail business.

As an older who enjoyed downtown when 30-40,000 people worked there and it was alive with the type of lifestyle we so yearn for now, I assure you there were drunks, beggars, thieves, drug addicts and con men all over the downtown and it didn't affect the business climate whatsoever. Its part of big city life.

[cannon_fodder]

Sad reality:  there is a double standard. And there is a reason for it.

The high-heel wearing drunk vomiting at one in the morning will go home, sober up, and head to work the following Monday. That drunk was at a restaurant earlier in the night, then went to a concert/show/gallery/event, then went to a bar. Pumping hundreds of dollars into the economy and supporting a dozen local businesses. If that drunk gets arrested, breaks something, or ends up in the hospital - the drunk will pay for it with their own money. That drunk is a detriment to commerce in the area for the last 30 minutes of one evening a week/month.

The guy I saw Wednesday afternoon passed out under the bridge next to Caines, and again the same guy passed out in the park near Mexicali Thursday night - wont be sobering up and going home. He didn't kick more than $10 into the local economy (for the liter of Popov he was drinking). If he is arrested or breaks something or ends up in the hospital, he won't pay a dime for it because he doesnt have a dime to pay. That drunk is a detriment to commerce in the area nearly all the time he is there.

It is the same reason New Orleans turns a blind eye to drunk tourists, but hassles drunk panhandlers.  They both may be obnoxious drunks, but the community makes money off of one, and spends money on the other. Frankly, you don't want the one that costs you money running away the one that makes you money.

Not a very nice take on things, but it is reality. Again, I'm happy to discuss ways of address homelessness, social inequality, and addiction treatment. All of those things are not only noble goals for humanity, but economically sound.

However, we need to get away from the idea that homeless people hanging around will be welcomed or that won't be viewed or actually be a detriment to commerce/development. A real detriment or not - the perception is there. Use the perception to fight the underlying problems as best we can (fear is a motivator... if we don't treat addiction, then bad things happen.So fund addiction treatment!).

[carltonplace]

Many of the patrons of Irongate drive from their homes to come and get the free breakfest. Not saying they don't need it, just pointing out that Irongate isn't just feeding the homeless.

I don't think their proposed spot at 3rd and Peoria takes their parking needs into account.
By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.

[Conan71]

Many of the patrons of Irongate drive from their homes to come and get the free breakfest. Not saying they don't need it, just pointing out that Irongate isn't just feeding the homeless.

I don't think their proposed spot at 3rd and Peoria takes their parking needs into account.
By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.

Sounds as if the homeless are already being served at 3rd & Peoria.

I drove past yesterday and the roof on the building looks like it's toast.  I can't imagine it's very dry in that building.

[sgrizzle]

By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.

Well at least it's not zoned for that, because THAT would really drag the neighborhood down.

[rdj]

Well at least it's not zoned for that, because THAT would really drag the neighborhood down.

Too bad the Pearl District didn't get Form Based Code...I'm told by a local real estate attorney Iron Gate would have had no issue moving into the property if the zoning and code had been updated the way the district folks wanted.