PAC Trust selects developer

[heironymouspasparagus]

If anything, the PAC just needs a bit of a rehab instead of an expansion. It's looking somewhat dated. $5 million would go a long way towards paying for that.

Parts of this thread starting to sound like my comments a few years ago about the Civic Center - remodel for a few million - versus building a BOK center for a couple hundred million....   Just depends on whose favorite activity is being promoted, I guess.  

Would be nice to see the private theaters get "dedicated" space.

[cannon_fodder]

Parts of this thread starting to sound like my comments a few years ago about the Civic Center - remodel for a few million - versus building a BOK center for a couple hundred million....   Just depends on whose favorite activity is being promoted, I guess.

You can debate whether or not the BOK was needed or is a pretty perk. You can discuss if it makes financial sense. An interesting debate can involve if it sucks money out of the economy with traveling shows or brings money in. If run as a stand alone business, would the BOK center pay for itself? These are all interesting points of discussion.

But remodeling an arena that seats less than 9k as a replacement for the proposal to build an arena capable of holding more than twice that number isn't  even a discussion. No NCAA tournaments. No Bass master. Most major concerts. NBA preseason games. Tons of things set the bar for minimum seating well past the capacity of the convention center.  The choice was to have a primary event sized arena, or not. The convention center wasn't a viable replacement for the proposal.

For the PAC, we have a primary event sized theater. In fact, it's larger than what many theater snobs prefer - but that's economics (200 show run in NYC or 10 shows in Tulsa).  We also have many theaters for secondary events. I'm happy for someone to cure my ignorance, but it seems like we have it covered. I'm sure it would be nice if there were more spaces so more practices etc. could go on at the same time. I have no doubt scheduling can be difficult.  But I don't see a venue type that isn't covered.

I freely admit that it is entirely possible that I just don't see the overwhelming need for theater space that isn't being met. There are ton of things going on at the PAC, no way I can keep up with them all. So I'm happy to stand corrected by someone more in the know.

[Conan71]

I freely admit that it is entirely possible that I just don't see the overwhelming need for theater space that isn't being met. There are ton of things going on at the PAC, no way I can keep up with them all. So I'm happy to stand corrected by someone more in the know.

Expanding the PAC is nothing more than a new manifestation of our stupid and expensive sprawl mentality in this town.  Let's just keep building sh!t  because we can!

[heironymouspasparagus]

You can debate whether or not the BOK was needed or is a pretty perk. You can discuss if it makes financial sense. An interesting debate can involve if it sucks money out of the economy with traveling shows or brings money in. If run as a stand alone business, would the BOK center pay for itself? These are all interesting points of discussion.

But remodeling an arena that seats less than 9k as a replacement for the proposal to build an arena capable of holding more than twice that number isn't  even a discussion. No NCAA tournaments. No Bass master. Most major concerts. NBA preseason games. Tons of things set the bar for minimum seating well past the capacity of the convention center.  The choice was to have a primary event sized arena, or not. The convention center wasn't a viable replacement for the proposal.

For the PAC, we have a primary event sized theater. In fact, it's larger than what many theater snobs prefer - but that's economics (200 show run in NYC or 10 shows in Tulsa).  We also have many theaters for secondary events. I'm happy for someone to cure my ignorance, but it seems like we have it covered. I'm sure it would be nice if there were more spaces so more practices etc. could go on at the same time. I have no doubt scheduling can be difficult.  But I don't see a venue type that isn't covered.

I freely admit that it is entirely possible that I just don't see the overwhelming need for theater space that isn't being met. There are ton of things going on at the PAC, no way I can keep up with them all. So I'm happy to stand corrected by someone more in the know.

Consider me a "repentant sinner" - I did not think the BOK was necessary, but it has been wildly successful.   

It wouldn't surprise me to see new theater stuff do similar.  With more theater space, Tulsa may be able to position itself as the "Broadway of Fly-Over Country".   Get us a little wider space on the left/right coast US maps.   



BA's PAC seems to be busy quite a bit...how many of those activities are things that Tulsa couldn't get because of facility considerations?  (Theirs is new and pretty, etc.)

[cannon_fodder]

Broken Arrow PAC seems to average 2 events a month with seating up to 1500:

http://brokenarrowpac.com/

It has 6 events scheduled through May of 2017. It is a very nice facility in an affluent suburb, but it is not well utilized. That isn't exactly a loud shout that we need more theater space.

[Oil Capital]

Broken Arrow PAC seems to average 2 events a month with seating up to 1500:

http://brokenarrowpac.com/

It has 6 events scheduled through May of 2017. It is a very nice facility in an affluent suburb, but it is not well utilized. That isn't exactly a loud shout that we need more theater space.

I count 9 events on their calendar through May of 2017.  But that does not count the usage of the PAC by the Broken Arrow schools -- they have 25 days of events just through December.

[Conan71]

I count 9 events on their calendar through May of 2017.  But that does not count the usage of the PAC by the Broken Area schools -- they have 25 days of events just through December.

Which still doesn't justify why we need more performance space in the Tulsa PAC.

[DTowner]

I wonder if a lot of the events booking at the Broken Arrow PAC are the types of events that used to book at the Van Trease theater at TCC's Southeast campus?

In the end, a lot of this smacks more about who controls the space than whether the space is available.  It seems likely the Tulsa PAC could fill more practice and performance space, but that this demand is currently getting met by other venues around town.  I doubt we are currently missing out on some area of the arts that we would have only if the PAC expanded.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I wonder if a lot of the events booking at the Broken Arrow PAC are the types of events that used to book at the Van Trease theater at TCC's Southeast campus?

In the end, a lot of this smacks more about who controls the space than whether the space is available.  It seems likely the Tulsa PAC could fill more practice and performance space, but that this demand is currently getting met by other venues around town.  I doubt we are currently missing out on some area of the arts that we would have only if the PAC expanded.

There is a lot of "who controls the space" in BA.  I talked to them several years ago about getting into their Farmer's Market - and was basically told no, you can't.  (Food concessions).  A couple years later, they had a couple of them showing up and operating.  Doesn't seem to have worked well, but the whole thing was very clique-ish/clan-ish.


The whole town is really being run by outsiders that have moved in, taken up residence at either First Baptist or Rhema (who has long had a big shadow), and a close group run a lot of the show.   Kind of like Tulsa on a smaller scale.

They leave Tulsa to experience the "small town feel" - and then bring "Tulsa World" with them - completely changing that small town feel thing.  Like Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, etc...

[heironymouspasparagus]

I count 9 events on their calendar through May of 2017.  But that does not count the usage of the PAC by the Broken Arrow schools -- they have 25 days of events just through December.

We visit friends/family out there quite a bit, and it's nice to drive down Main street just to 'see' what's going on.  Their PAC seems to have something going on every time we go by.

[cynical]

I don't know this as a certainty, but there has been discussion for years about Chapman Music Hall being overbooked. Scheduling is done three years in advance and time in the hall is a very hot commodity. If one of the big touring musicals comes in, no other group can use Chapman for anything. Remember Phantom of the Opera back in the 90s? It was here for something like two months. They redid parts of the hall specifically to accommodate that show (e.g. the ceiling had to be reinforced for the chandelier). Pushing other major arts groups out of their primary performance space in the heart of the season (the spring) can cause major economic damage, but there is no way the PAC could sensibly turn down the opportunity to collect rent for eight shows a week for 8 weeks or whatever it was. The downtown location is the sine qua non for all of those groups. Because of their mixed missions, other venues such as the BAPAC and the PACE don't have the time availability or the location to take up the slack.

Phantom, by the way, was entirely self-contained. Unlike most Celebrity Attractions shows, it did not hire local musicians except a couple of subs. All of the money paid for the show left town with the company - except for the fees paid for the hall.

It's not only performances that count. The opera and ballet especially need the hall for extended periods of time for set construction and rehearsal. The ballet ordinarily rents Chapman for more than a week for each non-Nutcracker production. Nutcracker is about 3 weeks. The opera typically uses Chapman for 2-3 weeks for each production. The Symphony uses it for three or four days for each of its performances, though other events such as Tulsa Town Hall can use the front of the stage while the orchestra shell is in place.

Kansas City did it right. The new Kauffman Center has two spaces, a 1,600 seat non-proscenium space for the symphony and an 1,800 seat proscenium space for the opera and ballet. The musicals play in the Music Hall at the convention center, a 2,400 seat hall that works well for that genre.

The smaller theater groups have been pleading for more venues for years. Chapman isn't part of their universe, nor would a 1,200 or 1,500 seat theater. They need 200-300 seats, sometimes less, for reasonable rentals. Tulsa's arts scene has hit a bottleneck, one they'll have to live with for decades to come.

Which still doesn't justify why we need more performance space in the Tulsa PAC.

[Conan71]

I don't know this as a certainty, but there has been discussion for years about Chapman Music Hall being overbooked. Scheduling is done three years in advance and time in the hall is a very hot commodity. If one of the big touring musicals comes in, no other group can use Chapman for anything. Remember Phantom of the Opera back in the 90s? It was here for something like two months. They redid parts of the hall specifically to accommodate that show (e.g. the ceiling had to be reinforced for the chandelier). Pushing other major arts groups out of their primary performance space in the heart of the season (the spring) can cause major economic damage, but there is no way the PAC could sensibly turn down the opportunity to collect rent for eight shows a week for 8 weeks or whatever it was. The downtown location is the sine qua non for all of those groups. Because of their mixed missions, other venues such as the BAPAC and the PACE don't have the time availability or the location to take up the slack.

Phantom, by the way, was entirely self-contained. Unlike most Celebrity Attractions shows, it did not hire local musicians except a couple of subs. All of the money paid for the show left town with the company - except for the fees paid for the hall.

It's not only performances that count. The opera and ballet especially need the hall for extended periods of time for set construction and rehearsal. The ballet ordinarily rents Chapman for more than a week for each non-Nutcracker production. Nutcracker is about 3 weeks. The opera typically uses Chapman for 2-3 weeks for each production. The Symphony uses it for three or four days for each of its performances, though other events such as Tulsa Town Hall can use the front of the stage while the orchestra shell is in place.

Kansas City did it right. The new Kauffman Center has two spaces, a 1,600 seat non-proscenium space for the symphony and an 1,800 seat proscenium space for the opera and ballet. The musicals play in the Music Hall at the convention center, a 2,400 seat hall that works well for that genre.

The smaller theater groups have been pleading for more venues for years. Chapman isn't part of their universe, nor would a 1,200 or 1,500 seat theater. They need 200-300 seats, sometimes less, for reasonable rentals. Tulsa's arts scene has hit a bottleneck, one they'll have to live with for decades to come.

The Brady Theater's web site claims it has 2800 seats which could accommodate enough guests for a ballet or opera.  If I am not mistaken, that theater was the home for the arts groups prior to the construction of the PAC.  I'm aware it is not as modern as the PAC, but Peter Mayo has done a credible job maintaining the place.  With the resurgence of the Brady District, I can't imagine the surrounding neighborhood is a negative to drawing arts patrons these days.  Perhaps there's other issues stage-wise I don't understand or the rent is too high which would not suit the ballet, opera, or symphony.  I'm simply stating that is a good sized venue which could accommodate crowds of 2800 for the arts quite easily.

[SXSW]

Here is some more insight from a Tulsa actor regarding the need for a new theater(s) at the PAC:
http://robertyoung.net/2015/05/28/tulsa-pac-adding-a-new-theater-or-why-adding-a-new-theater-wont-help/

Whatever they decide or not decide to do I hope they move forward with selling the east lot and that we can get a quality mixed-use development there.  IF they want to expand do it on the lots across the street on 3rd and have it also be mixed-use.  Maybe even consolidate the Tulsa Opera and Tulsa Ballet into one location downtown.

[cynical]

At the risk of sounding condescending, "maintaining the place" isn't what the Brady needs for purposes such as the opera and ballet.The Brady doesn't have and never had the backstage facilities needed for large-scale productions. The shows that are staged there are much smaller groups that make up for the acoustic inadequacies of the place by using amplification, anathema to classical performers. The lack of dressing rooms, construction areas, etc. make the Brady totally unfit for those two groups. I was there when the opera and ballet performed at the Municipal Theater. I'm not sure how they pulled it off. They didn't do it very often. Yes, the Brady was the home for all of the major groups before 1977. I don't know if you remember what those groups were back then. None could perform at a level remotely approaching what they do today. For example, the Tulsa Civic Ballet was an amateur company that imported professional soloists from other companies. Today it, under the name Tulsa Ballet Theatre, is a fully professional company with annual revenues of more than $5 million. I wouldn't suggest telling Marcello Angelini that he needs to relocate his performances to the Brady.

The Brady Theater's web site claims it has 2800 seats which could accommodate enough guests for a ballet or opera.  If I am not mistaken, that theater was the home for the arts groups prior to the construction of the PAC.  I'm aware it is not as modern as the PAC, but Peter Mayo has done a credible job maintaining the place.  With the resurgence of the Brady District, I can't imagine the surrounding neighborhood is a negative to drawing arts patrons these days.  Perhaps there's other issues stage-wise I don't understand or the rent is too high which would not suit the ballet, opera, or symphony.  I'm simply stating that is a good sized venue which could accommodate crowds of 2800 for the arts quite easily.

[Conan71]

At the risk of sounding condescending, "maintaining the place" isn't what the Brady needs for purposes such as the opera and ballet.The Brady doesn't have and never had the backstage facilities needed for large-scale productions. The shows that are staged there are much smaller groups that make up for the acoustic inadequacies of the place by using amplification, anathema to classical performers. The lack of dressing rooms, construction areas, etc. make the Brady totally unfit for those two groups. I was there when the opera and ballet performed at the Municipal Theater. I'm not sure how they pulled it off. They didn't do it very often. Yes, the Brady was the home for all of the major groups before 1977. I don't know if you remember what those groups were back then. None could perform at a level remotely approaching what they do today. For example, the Tulsa Civic Ballet was an amateur company that imported professional soloists from other companies. Today it, under the name Tulsa Ballet Theatre, is a fully professional company with annual revenues of more than $5 million. I wouldn't suggest telling Marcello Angelini that he needs to relocate his performances to the Brady.

Not taken as condescending at all.  I've been a contractor at the Brady for 12 years or so and you brought to mind something I'd completely overlooked for productions with large casts, but which stood out immediately when you mentioned it: lack of backstage facilities. 

I was remembering back to when I saw Al Hirt play Tulsa for the final time at the Brady with the Oklahoma Symphonia 20 or so years back and didn't really think about how tight that stage would be for sets and set changes as well as wardrobe changes, etc. 

You would be hard-pressed to accommodate a good-sized cast for a large production with the way it is laid out these days.  I have no idea if they might have utilized the building behind the Brady now used as a rehearsal space for wardrobe and makeup back in the old days or not.  There is a room off stage right which now has mechanical equipment which may have also been used for dressing rooms at a point in the past. 

I'll have to ask Peter what he knows about how they did those types of productions prior to the construction of the PAC.

I was 12 when the PAC opened, far as I know, I never attended a show at the Municipal Theater.  I doubt I saw a show at the Brady prior to 1984.  So for me, I've always associated the ballet and opera with the PAC.

All that aside, I can see it would be difficult to produce a complex opera or ballet at the Brady but symphony events or simpler stage plays would not be terribly difficult to produce there.  I'm still not buying that the current state of the PAC and other performance spaces is terribly stifling performance arts in Tulsa.