PAC Trust selects developer

[DTowner]

I wonder if the real reason the trustees seem to be reconsidering their decision is because this plan does not include any expanded PAC space, which was one of the desired items listed in the RFP?  Realistically, if PAC goes through with this deal they have very few options to expand in the future - and expanding into the Williams Green does not seen like a good option to me.  Of course, that fact was very clear when they selected this proposal over at least one other that included PAC space.  Again, the Trustees are presenting themselves as pretty incompetent in how they've gone about this project.

[SXSW]

I wonder if the real reason the trustees seem to be reconsidering their decision is because this plan does not include any expanded PAC space, which was one of the desired items listed in the RFP?  Realistically, if PAC goes through with this deal they have very few options to expand in the future - and expanding into the Williams Green does not seen like a good option to me.  Of course, that fact was very clear when they selected this proposal over at least one other that included PAC space.  Again, the Trustees are presenting themselves as pretty incompetent in how they've gone about this project.

They could expand across 3rd.  That would actually be the most logical place across from the main entrance since they are pretty much hemmed in on all other sides.

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

They could expand across 3rd.  That would actually be the most logical place across from the main entrance since they are pretty much hemmed in on all other sides.

It seems like the PAC has already expressed an interest in expanding onto Williams Green. I, personally, wouldn't have a problem with that. Expanding across 3rd would also be great (probably even better) because it would soak up a parking lot. Who owns that space, by the way?

[johrasephoenix]

The PAC has been there since the 1970s and still hasn't done the expansion, so I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen anytime soon.

And if it does, downtown is full of vacant lots that a PAC expansion would be great on.  It's kind of a shame they tore down all those grand old movie palaces just a few blocks away during urban renewal - I feel like with a little bit of creativity and elbow grease those could have made awesome PAC performance spaces.  Several of Chicago's coolest Broadway-type venues are former movie palaces from the 1920s that went bust in the 60s/70s and got brought back to life in the 1990s/2000s. 

[Bamboo World]

...downtown is full of vacant lots that a PAC expansion would be great on.

The PAC Trust does not control all of the vacant lots in downtown Tulsa.

[Conan71]

The PAC has been there since the 1970s and still hasn't done the expansion, so I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen anytime soon.

And if it does, downtown is full of vacant lots that a PAC expansion would be great on.  It's kind of a shame they tore down all those grand old movie palaces just a few blocks away during urban renewal - I feel like with a little bit of creativity and elbow grease those could have made awesome PAC performance spaces.  Several of Chicago's coolest Broadway-type venues are former movie palaces from the 1920s that went bust in the 60s/70s and got brought back to life in the 1990s/2000s. 

The PAC is coming up on 40 years old.  The venue size serves a good niche and there are plenty of other larger and smaller venues available for various arts performances.  I'm not seeing where an expansion is necessary other than the board wanting to expand the PAC because: "It's what you do."

I was at the City Council meeting when the PAC presented their ask for V-2025 extension money and I did not think they made near as compelling a case for an expansion and funding as Gilcrease did.

[cannon_fodder]

Who owns that space, by the way?

They are owned by an out of state real estate investment company from California, which doesn't appear to do anything else in town. They bought it from a Texas company (it's actually multiple lots). The names of the companies, their parent companies, and their presidents/etc. meant nothing to me and I found no Tulsa connections.

[SXSW]

I've heard it mentioned they want another performance space similar to the John Williams theater and an even smaller black box theater as well as other rehearsal spaces. 

[DowntownDan]

I've heard it mentioned they want another performance space similar to the John Williams theater and an even smaller black box theater as well as other rehearsal spaces.  

Then they should start a new campaign to raise enough to build a brand new facility on the existing parking lot.  Tear down the old one and expand the Williams Green including an outdoor performance space.  Build a parking facility if needed.  I'm thinking something akin to the AT&T Center in Dallas on a smaller scale (and smaller price tag).  OSU is building a great facility in Stillwater, you would think Tulsa with it's pride in its arts community could raise the money.

https://osugiving.com/mcknightcenter

[SXSW]

Omaha has a fairly new PAC downtown that they are planning to expand.  It looks similar in size to Tulsa's with the expansion nearly doubling the size and includes a mixed-use component.  Since Omaha is a peer city it is relevant to see what they are doing with regard to their main performing arts venue.

Something similar would be a great addition on the lot across the street if they wanted another small theater with a lobby across 3rd from the existing main entrance and then a mixed-use building closer to 3rd & Boston.  There could be additional parking as well either underground or as part of a garage.  Leave the east lot to private development/Reasor's with some PAC parking.

Holland PAC in Omaha

[Oil Capital]

I've heard it mentioned they want another performance space similar to the John Williams theater and an even smaller black box theater as well as other rehearsal spaces. 

According to the proposal they presented to the Vision committee, they want a 1,200 seat theater and a small 200-seat theater.  (John Williams Theater seats 421).

[cannon_fodder]

Omaha's Holland Theater:

- 2000 seat main theater
- 300 seat recital hall
- "founders room" which is basically a bar room for donors

Omaha also retained its classic vaudeville Orpheum theater - seats 2600

Jonh Beasley Theater (private) - seats 125

Creighton's Lied Education Center for the Arts - seats 350

All of those are pretty much downtown.


Tulsa has:

The PAC:

-Chapman Music Hall - 2365 seats
-John H. Williams Theater - 421
- Liddy Doenges Theater - 100 to 300
- Charles E. Norman Theater - 100 to 200
- Kathleen P. Westby Pavilion - conference room for 240
- Robert Lafortune Studio - seats up to 200

The University of Tulsa:

- Chapman Theater - 375
- Lorton Performance Center - 635
- Tyrell Hall Auditorium - 108
- Various other facilities listed that aren't really theaters (such as Reynolds center, etc.)

ORU:

- Howard Auditorium - 1000
- (various other facilities, like the Maybe Center)

TCC

- VanTrease Performing Arts Center - 1500
- Studio Theater - seating for 20
- theater space at every campus that holds are least 250 (including downtown)


Tulsa Ballet:

- Studio K - 295 seats
- Studio B, C, D, E, and F... each seating up to 200 (these are open space, not really theater space)




A good number of private theaters:

- American Theatre Company, 2 rooms each at 3000 square feet
- Tulsa Little Theater
- Spotlight Theater

Of course there are numerous lecture facilities, meeting rooms, conference facilities (OSU Tulsa, OU Tulsa, Langston, hotels, etc.), the convention center, the Expo Pavillion, churches and dozens of high school facilities too... not counting any of the suburbs (which Omaha doesn't really have).

So... I like the arts. I think art is as important as any other quality of life issue.  But what is the PAC missing that it cannot accommodate without a tens of millions of dollar expansion? Many of the venues I listed are full theaters. Many handle the smaller performances.

[swake]

If anything, the PAC just needs a bit of a rehab instead of an expansion. It's looking somewhat dated. $5 million would go a long way towards paying for that.

[Conan71]

Omaha's Holland Theater:

- 2000 seat main theater
- 300 seat recital hall
- "founders room" which is basically a bar room for donors

Omaha also retained its classic vaudeville Orpheum theater - seats 2600

Jonh Beasley Theater (private) - seats 125

Creighton's Lied Education Center for the Arts - seats 350

All of those are pretty much downtown.


Tulsa has:

The PAC:

-Chapman Music Hall - 2365 seats
-John H. Williams Theater - 421
- Liddy Doenges Theater - 100 to 300
- Charles E. Norman Theater - 100 to 200
- Kathleen P. Westby Pavilion - conference room for 240
- Robert Lafortune Studio - seats up to 200

The University of Tulsa:

- Chapman Theater - 375
- Lorton Performance Center - 635
- Tyrell Hall Auditorium - 108
- Various other facilities listed that aren't really theaters (such as Reynolds center, etc.)

ORU:

- Howard Auditorium - 1000
- (various other facilities, like the Maybe Center)

TCC

- VanTrease Performing Arts Center - 1500
- Studio Theater - seating for 20
- theater space at every campus that holds are least 250 (including downtown)


Tulsa Ballet:

- Studio K - 295 seats
- Studio B, C, D, E, and F... each seating up to 200 (these are open space, not really theater space)




A good number of private theaters:

- American Theatre Company, 2 rooms each at 3000 square feet
- Tulsa Little Theater
- Spotlight Theater

Of course there are numerous lecture facilities, meeting rooms, conference facilities (OSU Tulsa, OU Tulsa, Langston, hotels, etc.), the convention center, the Expo Pavillion, churches and dozens of high school facilities too... not counting any of the suburbs (which Omaha doesn't really have).

So... I like the arts. I think art is as important as any other quality of life issue.  But what is the PAC missing that it cannot accommodate without a tens of millions of dollar expansion? Many of the venues I listed are full theaters. Many handle the smaller performances.

Pretty well sums up my notion that the board wants to expand because it's just what they want or think they should do.  Tulsa is quite well served with performance space.  Your list gives plenty of credence to this and doesn't even touch on the Brady Theater, the arena at the Cox Center nor the various smaller areas in it or the PAC's at all the area high schools, nor the private event venues all over the city.  We don't need more theater or performance space to sit empty 98% of the year.  The land in that area would be a better service to the city as well as a source of tax revenue being developed as the existing development plan has proposed as mixed use developments.

The old guard of this city can be a real downer at times.  The shame of it is, the younger generations of those clans seem to have the same myopia to a degree.

[erfalf]

If Bartlesville can put on a world class series of events that comprise OK Mozart (Dozen + shows a day) with the spaces in town, I can't imagine Tulsa needing more performance space than already available. I get maybe wanting newer or nicer, but more?

Put a small venue in any other commercial building downtown. See post #132 in the Bartlesville thread for an example, Ambler Hall. Won awards and everything.