PAC Trust selects developer

[In_Tulsa]

I just heard the deal is officially dead. This would have been an amazing project!! Big loss for downtown!

[SXSW]

I just heard the deal is officially dead. This would have been an amazing project!! Big loss for downtown!

Big opportunity for another development group to take the torch.  This is one project where the PAC/city should demand high quality even if it takes a few more years to make it happen.

[TheArtist]

Big opportunity for another development group to take the torch.  This is one project where the PAC/city should demand high quality even if it takes a few more years to make it happen.

Unless another recession hits and then it could be a few decades.

[SXSW]

Unless another recession hits and then it could be a few decades.

Decades?  Highly unlikely.  A few years? Possibly. I was skeptical both SFS and this could go at the same time so late in the cycle but downtown overall still has all of the momentum.  And this is one of the best sites within the IDL.

[ComeOnBenjals]

Huge bummer if this deal really is dead. Having any sort of grocery store would've been an incredible addition to downtown. I would strongly considered moving downtown if I didn't have to leave for basic things like groceries... hopefully someone will notice the potential.

[SXSW]

Huge bummer if this deal really is dead. Having any sort of grocery store would've been an incredible addition to downtown. I would strongly considered moving downtown if I didn't have to leave for basic things like groceries... hopefully someone will notice the potential.

Urban grocery stores can be a tough sell with their already-thin margins.  Downtown Denver, which has a significantly larger residential population and 3x as many daytime office workers than Tulsa, has only had a downtown grocery store for 3 years.  I agree though that having such a store would be a game changer for people wanting to live downtown but not have to drive to 15th & Lewis. 

[hello]

Huge bummer if this deal really is dead. Having any sort of grocery store would've been an incredible addition to downtown. I would strongly considered moving downtown if I didn't have to leave for basic things like groceries... hopefully someone will notice the potential.

Why is that the deal breaker? How many people don't have to leave their neighborhood to get groceries? Now that Riverside is open getting to Brookside is a breeze. Not to mention the numerous delivery services available now.

I used to be on the downtown grocery train but putting it right by the PAC is a waste of that space IMO. Have it on the outskirts of downtown or just get an urban CVS down here.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Why is that the deal breaker? How many people don't have to leave their neighborhood to get groceries? Now that Riverside is open getting to Brookside is a breeze. Not to mention the numerous delivery services available now.

I used to be on the downtown grocery train but putting it right by the PAC is a waste of that space IMO. Have it on the outskirts of downtown or just get an urban CVS down here.

Really?   Anyone outside of downtown and large areas of the north side have groceries "in" their neighborhood.  I consider that to be less than a 2 mile drive, just for starters.  I suspect it is much shorter for very large sections of town.  Could be off here, but there seem to be many reasonable opportunities for most of town.

[hello]

Really?   Anyone outside of downtown and large areas of the north side have groceries "in" their neighborhood.  I consider that to be less than a 2 mile drive, just for starters.  I suspect it is much shorter for very large sections of town.  Could be off here, but there seem to be many reasonable opportunities for most of town.

15th and Lewis Reasor's is less than 3 miles from Downtown and Brookside is less than 4. Again, it would be nice to have if it was an urban grocery store but not right by the PAC.

[TheArtist]

The PAC spot does seem to be a decent spot for a small downtown grocery, especially if it were on a transit loop around downtown.  It would be close to some potential residential concentration in the Deco District and Blue Dome area.  But even then, there is not enough residential in just those areas to support even a small grocer.  A regular transit loop could help connect more residential spots scattered around downtown.  Otherwise if people are going to pop into their cars to go somewhere... its really just as convenient and attractive to go over to the Reasors.  But even this would be "faking it", making a half arsed, quasi real, space.


Our downtown is still so dead.  Still so few people walking around.  Still not a lively pedestrian area.  Few nights a week in a couple of spots, yes. But that is not "real".

Lunchtime rush downtown. When the average Tulsan might think "Oh, look, lots of people out and about."  Bet you just about every other day during that time I get a tourist or visitor from out of town coming into the store asking "Whats wrong with your downtown?" "Where is everyone?"  That during the time we would consider busy!

Its not busy.

Even during those few nights a week when the Blue Dome or Arts District have people out and about its often just around a few blocks in each area, and likely because of an event, special occasion, or people coming in from outside downtown to go clubbing/drinking/dining.  


I think back on when I have stayed in urban neighborhoods in other cities and they all have similar designs, infrastructure and patterns.  No matter where in the world they are.   And we DO NOT have those patterns, infrastructure, and designs in place.  Its like we are ignorant children playing at wanting an urban area but are completely oblivious to what it takes and making stupid mistakes while we do it.

What we are doing reminds me of the old saying "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing... after they have tried everything else first."

That is what we are doing with our downtown lol.  

[heironymouspasparagus]

15th and Lewis Reasor's is less than 3 miles from Downtown and Brookside is less than 4. Again, it would be nice to have if it was an urban grocery store but not right by the PAC.

3 miles is starting to be a little bit long-ish.  (Said by a guy whose family has 2 Walmarts, Braum's, Reasor's, and several convenience stores within two miles...)

[ComeOnBenjals]

The PAC spot does seem to be a decent spot for a small downtown grocery, especially if it were on a transit loop around downtown.  It would be close to some potential residential concentration in the Deco District and Blue Dome area.  But even then, there is not enough residential in just those areas to support even a small grocer.  A regular transit loop could help connect more residential spots scattered around downtown.  Otherwise if people are going to pop into their cars to go somewhere... its really just as convenient and attractive to go over to the Reasors.  But even this would be "faking it", making a half arsed, quasi real, space.


Our downtown is still so dead.  Still so few people walking around.  Still not a lively pedestrian area.  Few nights a week in a couple of spots, yes. But that is not "real".

Lunchtime rush downtown. When the average Tulsan might think "Oh, look, lots of people out and about."  Bet you just about every other day during that time I get a tourist or visitor from out of town coming into the store asking "Whats wrong with your downtown?" "Where is everyone?"  That during the time we would consider busy!

Its not busy.

Even during those few nights a week when the Blue Dome or Arts District have people out and about its often just around a few blocks in each area, and likely because of an event, special occasion, or people coming in from outside downtown to go clubbing/drinking/dining.  

I definitely agree that downtown could use a huge increase in foot traffic. I walk through downtown just about every morning for work. When I first moved here a couple months ago, it felt like some weird set in the twilight zone. I couldn't get over how few people I saw, it genuinely weirded me out.  That being said, as the weather is turning there's definitely an increased amount of people from what I can see. Still much quieter than any city I've lived in however. 

Some new additions make me hopeful, there's a new ice cream shop by the Meridia, and a new brewery coming soon around the corner. The Reunion building is a large project that has a lot of potential.  It seems like there are quite a few abandoned buildings that could be used for residential uses. Until there's more public transportation around downtown it'll be hard, but revitalizing the dead buildings would certainly help. 

It seems like there's an effort to make downtown more attractive for residents/people in general. I hope Tulsa embraces it... it'll be much more exciting to live in Tulsa if the downtown is bustling like other cities our size.  Minneapolis is a good example ( currently 100 Tulsa political/business leaders are visiting) that I think we could learn from.   

[DowntownDan]

If I were king and had his money, I'd burn the Philcade lobby back into an upscale shopping area. Anything to diversify from office fronts and bars and restaurants.

[SXSW]

The downtown grocery store doesn't have to be on this site but it's a good location for a few reasons, as long as it's part of a larger residential development like what Flaherty & Collins had proposed:
1.  It's in between new and future residential in the East Village as well as the CBD for office workers getting lunch/picking up groceries after work, etc
2.  The way the site is sloped you could put a level of parking underneath the store with direct access up one level that is separate from the residential/PAC uses which would likely be in a garage along 2nd
3.  It activates 3rd St which is a main pedestrian connector through downtown but has very little retail, this could lead to other developments with ground floor activation on the other PAC lot between Cincinnati and Boston and across the street.  

Denver's downtown Whole Foods with apartments above would be a good model where the grocery parking is underground and tenant parking is in a garage

[Conan71]

Decades?  Highly unlikely.  A few years? Possibly. I was skeptical both SFS and this could go at the same time so late in the cycle but downtown overall still has all of the momentum.  And this is one of the best sites within the IDL.

With Tulsa's growth at only about 2 to 2.2% on average, I'm not sure where everyone seems to think all these new projects will find residents or new commercial tenants right now.  I'd be playing it safe too if I were a developer.  If Tulsa could simply latch on to something that would drive more new high paying jobs to town, it might experience 4-8% growth which would justify more of these developments.