Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives

[heironymouspasparagus]

Actually, I wouldn't consider GKFF "Liberal Democrats" at least not Mr. Kaiser or Kenny Levitt.  Just caring and thinking people with progressive ideas.  Not sure about Kenny, but I know Mr. Kaiser has contributed to quite a few Republican candidates and causes and I do believe Phil Lakin, who sits on the board of GKFF and is the director of TCF, another GK initiative is a registered Republican.

The older I get, the less I recognize "conservative" or "liberal" and the more I recognize original thought and rational discussion. 

Tulsa would be such a different place without George Kaiser and the visionaries he's hired to work for him.

Kaiser contributes 10:1  Dem to Repub.


Right about that - you are either thinking or not....some here accuse me of being lib, but I am not.  Just shows how radicalized extremist they have become.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Yeah, maybe like Ted Nugent?   Or Toby Keith...  I see what you are saying - there are a lot of their supporters around too, supporting their moronic opinions!   Even some other than RWRE...

More like Woody Guthrie who strongly supported socialism and defended the USSR long after it was known that Stalin was murdering hundreds of thousands of his own people ("The Great Purge" where 700,000 were killed). He was actually quite a twisted fella.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Lot of people I saw at the U2 concert that couldn't.  If you go to a U2 concert not expecting some politics thrown in that you may or may not like, then you're just not well-informed.

That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.

[hello]

That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.

It was U2. Bono has had a God complex since the 80s. If someone is upset at being preached at during a U2 concert that's on them.

[DTowner]

It's funny that the discussion turned to political labels in a thread about a guy who in many ways is an enigma and defied labels the politics of the day tried to place on him.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

It's funny that the discussion turned to political labels in a thread about a guy who in many ways is an enigma and defied labels the politics of the day tried to place on him.

Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan...

Well blame heironymouspasparagus for yet another inaccurate inflammatory statement that this is an "extremist right wing state". Complete lie that is intended to be an insult (or he's just trolling as usual). We just legalized marijuana by a large margin (with nearly 90% voting yes in downtown/midtown, the area where these museums are and where those who support them tend to live) and the top republican governor was a pretty moderate candidate who was actually for raising taxes in the right situations to achieve progress.

There's nothing ironic that the Tulsa World is publicizing that a museum for one of the most famous American musicians of all time is coming to Tulsa, Oklahoma (and that he has tens of thousands of fans here that will be happy about this). His museum will be next door to AHHA, and Zarrow and on the same block as Guthrie and 108 Contemporary so it'll fit right in.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Yeah, maybe like Ted Nugent?   Or Toby Keith...  I see what you are saying - there are a lot of their supporters around too, supporting their moronic opinions!   Even some other than RWRE...

I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  

[Hoss]

I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  

If you're inferring Hitler in those, explain to me how his regime was 'left-leaning'.  Please.

[rebound]

If you're inferring Hitler in those, explain to me how his regime was 'left-leaning'.  Please.

I think he's putting Hitler in as the afterthought fascist...  But he's not wrong on the general numbers.  The deaths in Communist Russia, China, and Cambodia are close to, or possibly over (different estimates) 100M.

Holding aside Woody, who was definitely a Socialist (the Depression and the Dust Bowl will do things to people),  I'd be hard-pressed to name a prominent rock band that was/is actually Socialist.  Social-Democrat?  More left-leaning and supportive of higher levels of govt involvement?  Sure.  But unless we classify countries like Canada and England as Socialist, I think the label would be hard to support.

But I agree on the whole "let's wear the Che shirt and be cool thing", as I am sure very few of those people wearing the shirt would actually want to live the way Che wanted us to. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  

I know what you meant - I just clarified it to show the equal extremist right wing fascist leanings of at least as many in the other direction.  You didn't catch that??

And practically no rockers that are right wingers, huh?  Whew!  Where did you grow up??   Ted Nugent is an extremist right winger, if ya hadn't caught that by now.  There are actually quite an assortment...some you might even recognize.  Kid Rock.  Johnny Ramone.  Eric Clapton.  50 Cent (rapper, NOT rock, and drug dealer at 12), Elvis Presley, Phil Collins, Gene Simmons, and others I really don't know, but not really rock...like one of the Spice Girls.  And who could ever forget Lynyrd Skynyrd.  Some I like quite a bit - Sammy Hagar, and Meatloaf.  I like Ted's music, too, but don't tell anyone... But then I am not an extremist left or right.  I am an extreme moderate.

Fascism not nearly as deadly, huh?  From someone obviously not familiar with history.  Like US history... A long, glorious history of extermination and genocide.  Between us and Hitler, we got all the commies beat on extermination.  Where is it you think the Nazi's and Stalin got the pattern for what they did??  They knew history.  In fairness, we got a lot of our learning from the Dutch and Genghis Khan, but we did not have to embrace and repeat.

Yeah, no one goes around bragging about being a fascist, except the people like go to Charlottesville - the ones highly praised by Trump as being many fine people.  You again, appear to have NO clue about the past of Trump and his family - they have a LONG history, back about 100 years, to his grandfather, of bigoted, racist, fascist thought AND action, documented repeatedly in the news, and Federal Courts.  But that is easily dismissed and overlooked, ain't it?   After all, he is "our guy" to those elements.

You would also likely to be one to dismiss and excuse the Bush family for grandpa's role in supporting and financing the Nazi Germany war machine through their banking interests almost to the end of 1942 - well after our kids were getting killed by the Nazi's.

Here is a little clue for you - any dictator whether claiming to be left or right, is just another dictator, and as such, worthy of condemnation and elimination.  They are all the same no matter what ideology they make noise about.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Well blame heironymouspasparagus for yet another inaccurate inflammatory statement that this is an "extremist right wing state". Complete lie that is intended to be an insult (or he's just trolling as usual).


There's nothing ironic that the Tulsa World is publicizing that a museum for one of the most famous American musicians of all time is coming to Tulsa, Oklahoma (and that he has tens of thousands of fans here that will be happy about this). His museum will be next door to AHHA, and Zarrow and on the same block as Guthrie and 108 Contemporary so it'll fit right in.

Projection, deflection.


Yeah, he does have lots of fans.  I am one and have been for a very long time.  And this goes all the way back around to what I said initially, "Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan..."  Dylan and Guthrie have not always been popular in this state - this is a VERY recent phenomenon.  I guess they have both had images blurred enough by the passage of time so they can now be acceptable to Oklahoma.


And yeah, we ARE an extremist right wing state - have been all along.  Not an insult, maybe just a tiny touch derisive, just a statement of fact.  Just because you don't recognize what that is, or means, shows exactly how radical right is the "norm" here.   You have no normal frame of reference to compare to.   If you need examples, just look at all the wasted taxpayer money spent to pass bills over and over again that they know are illegal - extremist right wing bills - they know will be held illegal in court, again, and yet...keep on doing that instead of fixing real problems in the state to benefit the citizens; problems like infrastructure, public safety, education.

[cannon_fodder]

That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry.

Not much of a U2 fan, huh?  Don't worry, I'm not a huge fan either.  But I realize that they are known for being political activists in their music, to adopting various causes, and overt political statements in their concerts. I don't mean subtly or sometimes, I mean it is part of what they are known for, their wikipedia page even has a section on it.   It's in the encyclopedia! It isn't like they suddenly started dropping politics on their fans, this has been their thing for decades.

It would be like going to a Garth Brooks concert and being upset that he was wearing jeans and a cowboy hat. If you don't want to see someone dressed like  a cowboy, maybe a country music concert isn't for you.  Sure, you have the right to be angry at anything you want, but if you didn't know Garth Brooks was country or that U2 was political... that's ultimately on you.


Also, I kind of like that a discussion on the Bob Dylan Archives turned into a political discussion.  I know Dylan turned his back on politics decades ago, but it is still fitting.  We Live in a Political World.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think he's putting Hitler in as the afterthought fascist...  But he's not wrong on the general numbers.  The deaths in Communist Russia, China, and Cambodia are close to, or possibly over (different estimates) 100M.

Holding aside Woody, who was definitely a Socialist (the Depression and the Dust Bowl will do things to people),  I'd be hard-pressed to name a prominent rock band that was/is actually Socialist.  Social-Democrat?  More left-leaning and supportive of higher levels of govt involvement?  Sure.  But unless we classify countries like Canada and England as Socialist, I think the label would be hard to support.

But I agree on the whole "let's wear the Che shirt and be cool thing", as I am sure very few of those people wearing the shirt would actually want to live the way Che wanted us to. 

The Who did a whole song about some general concepts of the 20th century.  Won't Get Fooled Again.   New boss Che and Castro, same as the old boss.  Just as Batista, the US backed dictator made an environment many would not like to live in.

Che also was active in trying to prevent the CIA/United Fruit Company overthrow of Guatemala's elected government.   Kind of some formative moments there.

There is a long history of that kind of stuff worldwide where we played a direct part in getting rid of lawfully elected governments to put our puppets in place.   Noriega in Panama.  Reagan's efforts in Nicaragua.  The whole Iran show from the 30's on.   Depending on who is doing the estimating, we have had a direct helping hand in the deaths of somewhere between 15 to 25 million people - mostly civilians - since WWII - "In the name of freedom..."  

But hey, we don't need to know no stinkin' history - we's 'Muricans!!

[cannon_fodder]

Also, I chuckle at the "who's the biggest mass murderer" debate.  Hitler and Mussolini were right wing fascists. Stalin and Mao were leftist communists.  They were all narcissistic authoritarians.

The primary aim of all of them was to accumulate and use the power of the state to advance their own egos and prosperity.  Loyalty to them was more important than anything else, because it is the only thing seen as always helping to advance that goal.  Civil rights, rule of law, individual liberty, checks and balances, actually being a Republic (they always pretend to be a representative government), or really adhering to any political ideology... irrelevant.  Take any system you want, place an egotistical narcissistic at the helm, then give them enough space and any system can be driven into the ground. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter.

Political ideology is a circle.  At one point the far left and the far right are nearly indistinguishable.  One side represses the people for "patriotism" or "God" and the other does it for "the greater good" or "the masses."  You end up in the same place. The ideology that is used as an excuse for the results is secondary.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.

It's somehow the fan's fault??   As if U2 hasn't been well known to be politically active since their inception??   And how that has been in not just their music, but in every concert they have ever given??   Truly the classic definition of insanity for those so-called "fans" - expecting different results in Tulsa for some reason.

No.  They have no right to be angry.  They do have the right not to be stupid, but obviously didn't exercise that right.