The Trouble with Killing Life

[MyDogHunts]

I love Public Broadcasting.  If you don't, you are an idiot.  Not a fool, not a Republican, just an idiot.

Tonight I was, am, watching a show on 11.1.  "independent Lens: Trapped..."  Abortion

This is a struggle I think that is amoung the most fundimental of our culture.  What strikes me tonight includes: how can a Rightest person feel an unborn child is worth saving and yet denie the immergant that has suffered so much?

That is just one question.  To be human and live in a free society... These are personal decissions.

>don't get me started<

[Hoss]

I love Public Broadcasting.  If you don't, you are an idiot.  Not a fool, not a Republican, just an idiot.

Tonight I was, am, watching a show on 11.1.  "independent Lens: Trapped..."  Abortion

This is a struggle I think that is amoung the most fundimental of our culture.  What strikes me tonight includes: how can a Rightest person feel an unborn child is worth saving and yet denie the immergant that has suffered so much?

That is just one question.  To be human and live in a free society... These are personal decissions.

>don't get me started<

My problem with it is a little more basic.  How can Republicans be pro-life and also complain about government over-reach?  Do I believe or like abortion?  No.  However, that's not my decision to make.  It's between the woman and her physician and it's also the law of the land.

Also, it seems to be that they are all for the child while in the womb, but as soon as the baby takes a breath, they stop giving a hoot.

[Red Arrow]

Also, it seems to be that they are all for the child while in the womb, but as soon as the baby takes a breath, they stop giving a hoot.

That's the part that is confusing at best.

[MyDogHunts]

"Giving (not) a hoot after the first breath...."  Never thought of that attitude in those words.

PBS showed the first hour of three they are showing on Greece as the beginning history in so many good ways.  Todays radio started with a story of how the shipping industry is suffering.  You can ship three containers across the Pacific for the price of one iPhone.  Shipping is what began the Greek rise.  Greece would not have risen or thrived today.

Side note:  if I married again, a Greek born, Jewish, Eastern genetics (Woman), graduating from A East Coast university, wearing a short skirt & a long jacket, now working in Tulsa, for Tulsa, well, i degress.

Good history is what should rule.  Profit by corporations over individuals is as bad.... No, see above: worse than than killing the unborn.  The living breath.  Who gives a smile?

[Conan71]

I find there's a distinct irony in a political ideology that is pro fetus but also pro death for criminals.  I'm with Hoss on the abortion issue, I am personally against it but I do believe this is a decision best left to a woman, her partner, her doctor, and her higher power if she believes in one. I feel fortunate I was never in a position to have to help make that decision with someone.

I've not always been anti death penalty, reading John Grisham's non-fiction account of a couple of men who were railroaded by the Pontotoc County DA and Ada PD changed my mind on it for good.  Aside from us putting down the wrongly convicted, there is nothing even remotely fiscally conservative about the death penalty.  That's a long rant I've placed in many other threads here and no need to repeat.

The war on marijuana is another conservative movement which is incredibly fiscally wrong-headed.  Instead of taxing something and making it a revenue generator, we've been spending billions of dollars every year incarcerating people on charges related to the use or trafficking of MJ. 

It would be interesting to see how much of our $1.3 billion budget gap this last year could be attributed to death row prisoners and people locked up in Oklahoma prisons for MJ-related sentences.

Now, as to your comment about immigrants:  Without totally opening the borders and creating absolute chaos, where do we draw the demarcation line on "suffering" immigrants?  The U.S. has a long history of accepting every other country's refuse.  We also do not have unlimited resources to feed, clothe, and provide beds for every person who wants to emigrate here.

Other than the Native Americans amongst us, we are all either immigrants or descendants of them.  Orderly immigration has always been a part of what the United States is.  I simply do not have much pity for people who do not respect our immigration policy and laws who just want to exploit our social welfare system.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I find there's a distinct irony in a political ideology that is pro fetus but also pro death for criminals.  I'm with Hoss on the abortion issue, I am personally against it but I do believe this is a decision best left to a woman, her partner, her doctor, and her higher power if she believes in one. I feel fortunate I was never in a position to have to help make that decision with someone.

I've not always been anti death penalty, reading John Grisham's non-fiction account of a couple of men who were railroaded by the Pontotoc County DA and Ada PD changed my mind on it for good.  Aside from us putting down the wrongly convicted, there is nothing even remotely fiscally conservative about the death penalty.  That's a long rant I've placed in many other threads here and no need to repeat.

The war on marijuana is another conservative movement which is incredibly fiscally wrong-headed.  Instead of taxing something and making it a revenue generator, we've been spending billions of dollars every year incarcerating people on charges related to the use or trafficking of MJ. 

It would be interesting to see how much of our $1.3 billion budget gap this last year could be attributed to death row prisoners and people locked up in Oklahoma prisons for MJ-related sentences.

Now, as to your comment about immigrants:  Without totally opening the borders and creating absolute chaos, where do we draw the demarcation line on "suffering" immigrants?  The U.S. has a long history of accepting every other country's refuse.  We also do not have unlimited resources to feed, clothe, and provide beds for every person who wants to emigrate here.

Other than the Native Americans amongst us, we are all either immigrants or descendants of them.  Orderly immigration has always been a part of what the United States is.  I simply do not have much pity for people who do not respect our immigration policy and laws who just want to exploit our social welfare system.

The abortion topic among Republicans springs from a mind numbing hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.  They are flat out lying when talk about liberty, govt intrusion, and personal responsibility.  Exactly the same with marijuana.  And the Democrats are just as bad on the whole personal liberty thing as they are trying to take away one of the very few sports that I enjoy - the shooting sports.   

I really believe in the concept of the death penalty, but am also totally against it as practiced in the US.  There are just way too many cases where an innocent person (of the capital crime) was wrongly executed even when it was absolutely known that the person was not guilty of the capital crime.


And when looking at history of Native Americans - well, they are immigrants, too.  Just at a much longer time frame than European invaders... er, uh....immigrants!  At that time, the only indigenous lifeforms were very large fauna that they proceeded to kill off.  Can't say I blame them - I would kill a saber tooth cat, too.

[Hoss]

The abortion topic among Republicans springs from a mind numbing hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.  They are flat out lying when talk about liberty, govt intrusion, and personal responsibility.  Exactly the same with marijuana.  And the Democrats are just as bad on the whole personal liberty thing as they are trying to take away one of the very few sports that I enjoy - the shooting sports.   

I really believe in the concept of the death penalty, but am also totally against it as practiced in the US.  There are just way too many cases where an innocent person (of the capital crime) was wrongly executed even when it was absolutely known that the person was not guilty of the capital crime.


And when looking at history of Native Americans - well, they are immigrants, too.  Just at a much longer time frame than European invaders... er, uh....immigrants!  At that time, the only indigenous lifeforms were very large fauna that they proceeded to kill off.  Can't say I blame them - I would kill a saber tooth cat, too.

I don't see where anyone is trying to take away shooting sports.  You keep beating this same thing over and over.  To me, shooting sports is trap/skeet or even the pistol sports.  Last time I remembered, trap and skeet were shot with either single or two shot shotguns.  I know; my ex-wife was a regional skeet champ and the ex mother in law owned a range when they lived in Wyoming.  Both were exceptional shooters.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't see where anyone is trying to take away shooting sports.  You keep beating this same thing over and over.  To me, shooting sports is trap/skeet or even the pistol sports.  Last time I remembered, trap and skeet were shot with either single or two shot shotguns.  I know; my ex-wife was a regional skeet champ and the ex mother in law owned a range when they lived in Wyoming.  Both were exceptional shooters.

There has been an ongoing, concerted effort to outlaw firearms of all types in this country since the 60's.  All types.  The Brady Bunch Clown Show and others of the same ilk use Australia, UK, and Canada, as their 'guiding lights'.


Edit...
Quick question - did either your ex or ex mother feel that the sport was being threatened by people trying to take away the weapons?   Or limit the availability enough to render the sport extinct?

[cannon_fodder]

First - HELL YES. OETA is an amazing resource. Cutting funding is another example of poor leadership in OKC.

+1 on Conans take.  I will take exception to the term "refuse" when dealing with immigrants. I prefer other descriptors: tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Homeless. Tempest tossed. And yes, refuse, but only when coupled with "wretched refuse."

We are a national of immigrants. I don't want to encourage people to come simply to enjoy benefits. But I do want to give people who come  the best chance to succeed. That includes education for their kids, due process, etc.

[heironymouspasparagus]

NPR and PBS are not just amazing resources - they are the ONLY reasonable/rational thinking persons resource.

Cutting funding is another example of the massive Fail in Failin' and the Clown Circus.

[Hoss]

There has been an ongoing, concerted effort to outlaw firearms of all types in this country since the 60's.  All types.  The Brady Bunch Clown Show and others of the same ilk use Australia, UK, and Canada, as their 'guiding lights'.


Edit...
Quick question - did either your ex or ex mother feel that the sport was being threatened by people trying to take away the weapons?   Or limit the availability enough to render the sport extinct?

Nope, never did.  However, they also never were interested in having firearms that were made for military use (AR style) regardless of whether or not they were semi-auto or fully auto.  My point is I think we should stop selling guns with the ability to do these mass murders.

And please, no straw man arguments.  I'm pretty sure you're going to side with gun manufacturers and the NRA on this one, as your previous posts have meted out.  I'm not here to convert you.  I will say, however, that until something is done, this will never end.  We will continue having this same argument once or twice a year.

EDIT:  And yes, I AM a firearm owner.  Two handguns and a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun.  I also have my carry license.

[erfalf]

I will agree that conservatives (generally not always) would seem to have a hard time reconciling being pro life and pro death penalty at the same time. I imagine at some point the threat of death was thought to be a deterrent, but that obviously doesn't seem to be the case. If only people that were truly guilty (which is impossible to determine) were put to death I would have little qualms considering that it is a penalty for a crime that involved a person depriving another of their right to life.

That being said, if you look at the pro-life movement through a different lens it is far easier to justify their stance. They view the fetus as a completely separate human (which it is). Science even says so. It's residence is immaterial.

Perspective is everything. There are so many facets of life where two different opinions are both equally justified, neither right or wrong. Just different. How we reconcile & live with those differences is what historically has made America unique in the world.

[erfalf]

Nope, never did.  However, they also never were interested in having firearms that were made for military use (AR style) regardless of whether or not they were semi-auto or fully auto.  My point is I think we should stop selling guns with the ability to do these mass murders.

And please, no straw man arguments.  I'm pretty sure you're going to side with gun manufacturers and the NRA on this one, as your previous posts have meted out.  I'm not here to convert you.  I will say, however, that until something is done, this will never end.  We will continue having this same argument once or twice a year.

EDIT:  And yes, I AM a firearm owner.  Two handguns and a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun.  I also have my carry license.

It's not a straw man argument. Reality has bore out that most of these types of crimes that are committed with a firearm (no bombs and such) are done so with a handgun, 3/4 or so I believe. This is a class of weapon that is rarely mentioned in these reactionary conversations. But it is equally lethal I guarantee it. Only recently (in the last 12 months or so) have a larger proportion of these crimes been committed with semi-auto rifles.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Nope, never did.  However, they also never were interested in having firearms that were made for military use (AR style) regardless of whether or not they were semi-auto or fully auto.  My point is I think we should stop selling guns with the ability to do these mass murders.

And please, no straw man arguments.  I'm pretty sure you're going to side with gun manufacturers and the NRA on this one, as your previous posts have meted out.  I'm not here to convert you.  I will say, however, that until something is done, this will never end.  We will continue having this same argument once or twice a year.

EDIT:  And yes, I AM a firearm owner.  Two handguns and a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun.  I also have my carry license.

I have no illusions of converting you either.  I don't share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.  I certainly wouldn't mind if you step away from the 'dark side' on this, though...lol !!



    A police officer sees a drunken man intently searching the ground near a lamppost and asks him the goal of his quest. The inebriate replies that he is looking for his car keys, and the officer helps for a few minutes without success then he asks whether the man is certain that he dropped the keys near the lamppost.

    "No," is the reply, "I lost the keys somewhere across the street." "Why look here?" asks the surprised and irritated officer. "The light is much better here," the intoxicated man responds with aplomb.



That captures the whole and complete topic of our approach to "gun control" in this country.  Even though there are some huge problems - from mental health to radical whichever to the biggest one of all, the war on drugs - we refuse to seriously address them in their proper light, and insist on looking for the simple solution, "under the light" - gun control - because it is easier...the light is "better".  No straw man arguments - I don't need them at all when dealing with this topic - the reality is plenty good an argument.  Will try to keep this short though so we don't lose too many.

erfalf has it right....mostly handgun deaths.  And 60% or so are suicides.  And then when you look at the demographic of gun violence...well, we can't do that now, can we?  The vast majority is in large cities with large gang problems.  Take all of those activities out of it and then you get to the point where we tend to blend in much better with what the anti-gunners call "civilized" countries.  If we really wanted to look at ways to reduce gun violence, we would decriminalize drugs.  It is the single biggest cause of violence of all kinds in this country!   Worked perfectly with alcohol to reduce the violence associated with it's prohibition, giving us the blueprint needed to effectively address a huge part of the problem - the biggest part!!  But that doesn't fit the agenda, does it?

FBI defines a mass shooting as involving 4 or more victims murdered.  (Not sure what it would be if 20 were just wounded...?)  From 2009 to 2015 (missing this years Orlando) there were 199 killed, so about 250 through now.  This is horrendous - most especially when kids are involved....   This type of killing is a drop in the bucket - it just gets such huge publicity because of special agendas.  Who is concerned about all the Chicago victims - thousands more over the same timeframe?  And why don't we hear the same drumbeat about them?

IF ALL we had were these mass shootings with "assault weapons", we would have the lowest gun violence rate on the planet.  And it still would need attention, as far as I am concerned - even 1 violent gun death...or accidental or suicide or whatever...is too much!!   And guess who has the highest mass shooting death rate per million population from 2009 - 2015?  Norway at 1.88.  We are at 0.089 for the same time period.  Belgium was at 0.128...just for comparison.

Death rate per million people from mass shootings, 2009 thru 2015.

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-at-Tuesday-April-5-1.05-AM.png


Here are a bunch of charts showing a lot of stuff about guns, violence, murder rates, etc.  I bet most people's eyes glaze over before they get through them.

http://www.ijreview.com/2016/01/510415-10-charts-that-put-obamas-gun-violence-town-hall-in-perspective/



As for Chicago - the land of some of the toughest gun control laws in the country.  They say one has no right to self defense - you should depend on the police.  The police - only minutes away, when seconds count!

So, Chicago - with just about the toughest gun laws in the nation....Starting on 16 Jun;

1,689 shootings.

1,709 - by late afternoon, 16 Jun.
1,725 - as of 19 Jun.
1,803 - as of today, 22 Jun.

Totals and listings;

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings/



And this country has over 150 million law abiding gun owners - millions with AR's - with about 17 gazillion rounds of ammunition, who shot no one this year! It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem!    Small hyperbole alert on the ammo...

[Conan71]

Nope, never did.  However, they also never were interested in having firearms that were made for military use (AR style) regardless of whether or not they were semi-auto or fully auto.  My point is I think we should stop selling guns with the ability to do these mass murders.

And please, no straw man arguments.  I'm pretty sure you're going to side with gun manufacturers and the NRA on this one, as your previous posts have meted out.  I'm not here to convert you.  I will say, however, that until something is done, this will never end.  We will continue having this same argument once or twice a year.

EDIT:  And yes, I AM a firearm owner.  Two handguns and a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun.  I also have my carry license.

I really don't see the issue with the high capacity weapons.  Where we see many of these shootings happen are places where it is expected the people inside will be un-armed like schools, public buildings, theaters, night clubs, etc.  Places where it is either illegal to carry on premises (I'm assuming it was illegal to carry in a bar in Florida like it is in Oklahoma) or are posted as no weapon areas.  We would have better luck creating deterrents in public places with an armed guard or loosening restrictions on where people can conceal carry.

If there is no armed resistance inside it matters very little what gun the killer is using.  With no armed resistance he/she is free to reload and shoot all they want unless the gun jams.  Granted, a single shot Derringer would be very impractical, but you could get away with using a wheel gun or single stack semi auto like a 1911.

The other issue is, gun restrictions have not proven to prevent mass killings.  Sawed-off shotguns are illegal, yet they were used at Columbine along with a TEK 9 and another long gun.  I'm not sure if the TEK 9 was even legal at the time under the Clinton gun ban.  The semi-auto rifle used in Sandy Hook was illegal to own or possess there. 

What I'm getting at is you can pass all the bans you want, that doesn't clean out all the gun safes and closets where these weapons already exist.