1918 Tulsa Aero View

[SXSW]

As unusual as that would seem, I think you are correct. Too much of a coincidence that Cowen was founded in 1896 and the building built in 1896. They probably chiseled that date many years later. Its pretty old though.

And in answer to my own question, yes the façade of the Waterworks building 1911 is clearly visible.

I love that building on Quanah.  Is it being used for anything or just storage/vacant?  Nice skyline views from the upstairs Windows.

[AquaMan]

I've seen Cowan trucks coming and going. Seems to be in use. The rest of the corner seems to be abandoned. A shame because it leads directly into the western entry to Brady district.

[Red Arrow]

The thing that strikes me most is how unobtrusively the rail and trolley lines fit into the urban fabric.  

Just imagine if we'd stuck to trains and trolleys instead.

There were a lot of reasons the trolley lines became unprofitable.  Some of them included franchise fees from cities that viewed the trolleys as cash cows and then regulated the fares below a profitable level.  Trolley lines were almost all privately owned in the early 20th Century.  Buses, cars, and jitneys used the roads for free.  Trolleys had to maintain their tracks and sometimes the roadway around the tracks that the buses etc used for free.  Of course, some lines were just in a nonprofitable area and there were some bad business decisions too.

[dsjeffries]

There were a lot of reasons the trolley lines became unprofitable.  Some of them included franchise fees from cities that viewed the trolleys as cash cows and then regulated the fares below a profitable level.  Trolley lines were almost all privately owned in the early 20th Century.  Buses, cars, and jitneys used the roads for free.  Trolleys had to maintain their tracks and sometimes the roadway around the tracks that the buses etc used for free.  Of course, some lines were just in a nonprofitable area and there were some bad business decisions too.

Streetcars and trolleys around the country were bought by General Motors, who then cut service and ripped out the lines, while introducing intentionally-terrible buses to force nudge people to buy their own personal automobile. Here's a great video that addresses the issue. And another

[heironymouspasparagus]

GM lost lawsuits over that little adventure, but by the time the lawsuits were done, the trolleys were already gone.

[AquaMan]

I had read that they merely bought the locomotive and trolley car manufacturers to control the manufacture and parts replacement for both forms of transportation while applying pressure on government to make sure road building was subsidized then strangled them out of business. After all, millions of car owners paying gasoline taxes for cars along with license and excise taxes vs stodgy old mass transit was very appealing to expanding, suburban cities of the fifties. Throw in that cities were in bed with suburban land developers to augment their phoney baloney jobs and you get the picture. They got screwed, blued and tattooed.

like Arrow said, they were the victim of a variety of forces.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I had read that they merely bought the locomotive and trolley car manufacturers to control the manufacture and parts replacement for both forms of transportation while applying pressure on government to make sure road building was subsidized then strangled them out of business. After all, millions of car owners paying gasoline taxes for cars along with license and excise taxes vs stodgy old mass transit was very appealing to expanding, suburban cities of the fifties. Throw in that cities were in bed with suburban land developers to augment their phoney baloney jobs and you get the picture. They got screwed, blued and tattooed.

like Arrow said, they were the victim of a variety of forces.

They lost anti-trust lawsuits, too.

Lots of economic factors - that was one, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

[Red Arrow]

Streetcars and trolleys around the country were bought by General Motors, who then cut service and ripped out the lines, while introducing intentionally-terrible buses to force nudge people to buy their own personal automobile. Here's a great video that addresses the issue.

Interesting video. 

One must realize though that as the transit holocaust was in full swing that the trolleys were mostly in decline.  Many had deferred maintenance on both the tracks and the cars.  They were not a smooth riding, comfortable way to get about.   Bring about the Electric Railway President's Conference Committee.  They defined the specifications for a smooth riding, upholstered seat trolley that came to be known as the PCC Cars. These are the streamlined (art deco?) trolleys.  The PCC Cars kept many trolley lines running for decades.
http://www.american-rails.com/pccs.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Streetcars and trolleys around the country were bought by General Motors, who then cut service and ripped out the lines, while introducing intentionally-terrible buses to force nudge people to buy their own personal automobile. Here's a great video that addresses the issue. And another

First one shows self-driving cars...we are only 16 years late!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Interesting video.  

One must realize though that as the transit holocaust was in full swing that the trolleys were mostly in decline.  Many had deferred maintenance on both the tracks and the cars.  They were not a smooth riding, comfortable way to get about.   Bring about the Electric Railway President's Conference Committee.  They defined the specifications for a smooth riding, upholstered seat trolley that came to be known as the PCC Cars. These are the streamlined (art deco?) trolleys.  The PCC Cars kept many trolley lines running for decades.
http://www.american-rails.com/pccs.html

We have come full circle - now all the road systems are ALL in decline!  If we had maintained both/either system, we might have had two good, complementary systems.

[heironymouspasparagus]

There are some public services that should never be privatized.

Water.
Sewer.
Roads/rail/transportation.


Probably others.

[DTowner]

It seems to me we long ago missed the boat on spending large sums of money to recreate Tulsa's small coverage area of fixed rail trolley service.  Instead of pining for the return of 19th century transportation technology, we should focus on what transportation is really going to be like in a decade or so as autonomous self-driving vehicles become ubiquitous.  Just this week, Uber started testing a self-driving fleet in Pittsburgh.  Tulsa should embrace this and similar technology and try to be on the leading edge of it.  Let OKC, Dallas, Houston, et al. be stuck subsidizing their underperforming fixed rail systems as Tulsa zooms off into the future.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It seems to me we long ago missed the boat on spending large sums of money to recreate Tulsa's small coverage area of fixed rail trolley service.  Instead of pining for the return of 19th century transportation technology, we should focus on what transportation is really going to be like in a decade or so as autonomous self-driving vehicles become ubiquitous.  Just this week, Uber started testing a self-driving fleet in Pittsburgh.  Tulsa should embrace this and similar technology and try to be on the leading edge of it.  Let OKC, Dallas, Houston, et al. be stuck subsidizing their underperforming fixed rail systems as Tulsa zooms off into the future.

The idea of "19th century" transportation is exactly the propaganda BS that you are expected to swallow without thought or use of any reasoning ability.  Worked in 1952, working now...

IF for some reason that were true - which it isn't - then how does one explain the advanced public transportation systems of virtually every other civilized country in the world?

Yes, we should focus on the future.  And autonomous self-driving is solely an extension of the problem that we currently have with individual driven vehicles.  Take the concept of riding in comfort without having to do the driving yourself - PLUS the expense and all other adverse issues of auto driving.

[DTowner]

The idea of "19th century" transportation is exactly the propaganda BS that you are expected to swallow without thought or use of any reasoning ability.  Worked in 1952, working now...

That's some accusation.  If fixed rail had worked so well in 1952, it wouldn't have disappeared from virtually every city that was not densely populated.  Oh wait, I forgot, General Motors, acting as Dr. Evil, single-handedly killed off popular trolley lines all over the country and brainwashed Americans into moving to single family homes in the suburbs where they would need 2 cars per family.

[AquaMan]

Even though it was the simple fifties, it was still a complicated, complex set of circumstances that created suburban sprawl, the death of mass transit, the change from railroad passenger trains to freight trains, etc. This thread has laid out some of those factors but you seem to think it was just old fashioned, single issue problems and solutions.

The idea of self driving cars in every driveway seems not real compatible with the move towards higher density in urban areas and conversion of high rise buildings into housing. Mass transit would seem to be a better fit for those movements. Maybe suburbia could justify them. I don't suppose we could have both?