Terence Crutcher

[patric]

I would love to...   Since you read the article you should have seen it.... 

(From here:   http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-holding-stick-shot-officer-oklahoma-city-49969676)

1.    ....Sanchez was on the porch when Lindsey arrived.

2.    Lindsey called for backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.

3.    He said Sanchez was holding a metal pipe that was approximately 2 feet (0.6 meters) long and that had a leather loop on one end for wrapping around one's wrist. Lindsey called for            backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.
   

The story says the victim was on his porch holding a pipe, which the officers initially reported was a stick.  After the second officer arrived there is indication they initiated communication, at which point the victim came over to the officers.  Nowhere in the story does it validate your claim that he "grabbed a pipe off the porch" to talk to cops.

So now begins the long wait for dashcam video to be enhanced.  Meanwhile, its an international story now.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/deaf-advocates-call-oklahoma-police-shooting-tragic-not-surprising-n803226

[guido911]

It was mentioned twice in the article (Guido didnt bother reading):

I read the article. How else would I know you left out the contributing factor to the shooting in your biased, "cops are big meanies" post?

[guido911]

Why is it that our police see no option but to kill hundreds of people per year, but other nations on the planet don't?

Duh. Because our police are blood-thirsty, out of control, terrorists. I mean, other countries have non-compliant, disrespectful, threatening, drug-addled, wannabe gangster, selfish, criminals like we have.  

[patric]

I read the article. How else would I know you left out the contributing factor to the shooting in your biased, "cops are big meanies" post?

I posted just the ABC News headline and link.  Nothing biased or "left out"

[TeeDub]

"They need to put one hand out to show the sign for stop," Whitmore said. "Try to use the hands as much as possible." Officers shouldn't hesitate to write a message down on paper, or if there's time, call an interpreter, he added.


I think that is implied when they point a gun at you....   I can tell you for a fact, if someone points a gun at me, I will stop moving toward them.   Apparently patric thinks that a gun pointed at him means that he wants a hug.

[Conan71]

How about making it mandatory to learn and use non-lethal take-downs as a part of training being preferable to raising a weapon?  This was one thing which really impressed me when I took my CCL course: even though the class was to give the proper training to earn a CCL, the instructors really emphasized non-lethal take-down and self-defense as a part of the class.

In this case, a metal pipe can potentially be lethal, but proper training in martial arts can show someone how to use it as the method to take down the aggressor.  I wasn't there so I can't say what was going on in the minds of the cops, but that seems like a situation where pepper spray or a taser would have been more than enough to end the perceived threat toward the officers.  Based on this account, it's similar to the Crutcher shooting as a taser and pistol were fired at the same time apparently. It makes me wonder if the cop with the gun was startled by the taser a split second before.  I've long thought that may have spooked Shelby into shooting Crutcher.

The other problem I do have with this one is, the victim was still 15' away from the officers when they shot.  They could have retreated behind a vehicle or gone across the street, it's not like the pipe is that much of a threat at 15'.

Again, I was not there and in the situation, but I'd like to think if someone had gotten up and approached with a pipe, I'd retreat and try to diffuse the situation or wait for more help, that my first thought wouldn't be to 10-ring him or her.

[patric]

I think the problem with a malpractice type thing for cops is that generally speaking we ask cops to partake in inherently dangerous exercises with people that generally don't have the well being of society in mind. It's a decidedly different environment than the other industries you mentioned.

If that were true of every contact then maybe, but my own experiences are almost all mutually polite and civil (as I suspect the majority are).
Doctors dont do the same jobs as lawyers, home-builders, masseuse etc. so there's no reason it couldn't apply to any sort of professional negligence.
The unions will either look at it as potentially loosing power, or a way to restore respectability to a profession that has lost so much.

Based on this account, it's similar to the Crutcher shooting as a taser and pistol were fired at the same time apparently.

It makes me wonder if the cop with the gun was startled by the taser a split second before.  I've long thought that may have spooked Shelby into shooting Crutcher.

Ever fired a gun as part of a volley?  Its a well-known reflex and nearly instantaneous.
That, and the single shot (as opposed to the customary "double-tap") is why some officers off-the-record felt the Shelby shooting was accidental.

[patric]

How about making it mandatory to learn and use non-lethal take-downs as a part of training being preferable to raising a weapon?  This was one thing which really impressed me when I took my CCL course: even though the class was to give the proper training to earn a CCL, the instructors really emphasized non-lethal take-down and self-defense as a part of the class.

Proper training and malpractice insurance might eliminate a lot of small-town soap opera:

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/small-town-clash-between-police-men-on-utv/

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ever fired a gun as part of a volley?  Its a well-known reflex and nearly instantaneous.

I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.  Josey Wales always fired one, then the other, but I find simultaneous to be more gratifying.

[rebound]

I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.  Josey Wales always fired one, then the other, but I find simultaneous to be more gratifying.

Yeah, but Wales used Colt Walker 1847s.  Single action. Hard to fire simultaneously.  (At least more than once.)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yeah, but Wales used Colt Walker 1847s.  Single action. Hard to fire simultaneously.  (At least more than once.)

I have an Italian version of that and fires at same time as .45 if not in a big hurry - just have to pull the hammer back and it's good to go.

[patric]

I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.

Actually, it refers to those standing next to (or in formation with) someone firing a gun, who fire their guns in a nearly instantaneous chain-reaction.
A "nervous reflex" if you will, that can be greatly compounded by improper trigger discipline.
The Oklahoma City DA refers to the effect as "sympathetic fire"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/06/okla-officer-charged-with-murder-in-fatal-shooting-of-man-who-tried-to-set-himself-on-fire/

FWIW, the DA credits the first two officers for using textbook de-escallation and gaining the compliance of the suspect.




Back on topic; Tulsa's city attorney wants the civil suit in Terence' Crutchers death thrown out because it could be "scandalous"  and the defendants all have "qualified immunity."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/city-attorney-wants-terence-crutcher-lawsuit-refiled-because-of-scandalous/article_ee6f1580-9705-5d85-b7ee-f6bf9108ec96.html

"Scandalous" is Tulsa being on this list:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/19/us/police-videos-race.html

[patric]

I'm tired of debating individual cases.  Many are likely to either always believe the "he's coming right for us" defense or that all police set out to murder black/poor/mentally ill people.  I've seen cases where I can't believe the officer decided to kill someone, I've seen scenarios where I can't believe the person put an officer in a position where they had to.  We could have the same conversation a dozen times a month, and some do. 

The Police Murder of Daniel Shaver
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454504/police-murder-daniel-shaver

[patric]

I'll be very blunt here.  Walton is an idiot.  This was a straight PR move.

If he's running for office he probably needs his own thread, but here's his latest missive:
http://www.newson6.com/story/37322317/sheriff-walton-responds-to-city-councilors-crooked-cops-comment

Its in response to other lawmakers
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-police-union-criticizes-city-councilor-after-she-makes-crooked/article_8dd4c0c2-2f6f-5691-8317-ca080d4f03ba.html

[Conan71]

If he's running for office he probably needs his own thread, but here's his latest missive:
http://www.newson6.com/story/37322317/sheriff-walton-responds-to-city-councilors-crooked-cops-comment

Its in response to other lawmakers
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-police-union-criticizes-city-councilor-after-she-makes-crooked/article_8dd4c0c2-2f6f-5691-8317-ca080d4f03ba.html

I don't think that penis with ears deserves his own thread.