SQ 779 / Teacher pay

[Conan71]

This thread was started by Moderator to continue an off-topic conversation from another thread. The other posts are being moved to this thread.  You guys can take off topic to a whole new level!

State Question 779 is a 1% sales tax increase that is to be designated to education, including teacher pay raises.
https://ballotpedia.org/Oklahoma_One_Percent_Sales_Tax,_State_Question_779_(2016)

Discuss.

- Moderator
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--=: First Post Split from Old Topic :=--

I expect that, at least in Oklahoma, the funds that should be allocated to roads are spent elsewhere.  I don't like toll roads but it is a convenient way to build roads.  I grew up in PA with the PA Turnpike.  There were also some toll roads in NJ from the Philadelphia area to the NJ Seashore around Atlantic City and Cape May.  There was also the NJ Turnpike if you wanted to go to NY.

Education:  I believe that if 779 passes that all that money raised by the increased sales tax will be spent on education.  I also believe that money already being spent on education will be re-allocated elsewhere.  We have had at least 2 things that were supposed to fix education spending forever.  1017 (I think that was the bill/law number) was the first I remember (our family moved here in 1971).   The lottery was the second.

Which explains why I won't vote for 779.  One thing we can always count on is our legislature to champion education, find a "better" way to fund it, then once that passes, they divert old means elsewhere.

And David, ODOT already struggles to develop and maintain the roads it has in its inventory now.  I don't mind the turnpike user fees so much, it generally does provide a much better roadway.  I freaking love the road from the Cleveland exit to I-35 now!

[Hoss]

Which explains why I won't vote for 779.  One thing we can always count on is our legislature to champion education, find a "better" way to fund it, then once that passes, they divert old means elsewhere.

And David, ODOT already struggles to develop and maintain the roads it has in its inventory now.  I don't mind the turnpike user fees so much, it generally does provide a much better roadway.  I freaking love the road from the Cleveland exit to I-35 now!

My reason for not voting for it is that a sales tax is incredibly regressive...it affects those who can afford it least (middle and lower income Oklahomans).  Legislators in OKC need to get off their asses and figure out how to fund teacher raises without a sales tax.

But your reason is valid too.

[heironymouspasparagus]

But why do we need tolls to fund this? How misallocated are our tax dollars? Same question I have with education. It just doesn't add up. Frustrating.

You already know how misallocated our tax dollars are - just by the existence of a turnpike authority.  No, it doesn't add up and never has added up - it has ALWAYS been about political patronage, cronyism, and back scratching...as in, "If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...."

Not sure how it is today, but letting people buy turnpike bonds has traditionally been one of the best ways the elected state officials have to "return the favor" to their 'friends'....you or I cannot (could not?) buy a turnpike bond.  The relatively high interest paid with tax exempt status made them a very attractive investment.  As of about year 2000, I have only known 2 people who were able to get those bonds.  Maybe things have changed in last 15 years - don't know for sure.

2015 CAFR states 3.859% interest paid.  Whole lot better than 0.5% on a savings account...and tax exempt!!

And they are getting ready to raise tolls again...

[Red Arrow]

My reason for not voting for it is that a sales tax is incredibly regressive...it affects those who can afford it least (middle and lower income Oklahomans). 

Sales tax wouldn't be quite so regressive if food and clothes were exempted.

[davideinstein]

Sales tax wouldn't be quite so regressive if food and clothes were exempted.

I'm a yes lean on 779, but it just seems like another rip off. What happened to the lottery money? Now we have two regressive taxes?

[Conan71]

I'm a yes lean on 779, but it just seems like another rip off. What happened to the lottery money? Now we have two regressive taxes?

It seems like it because it is.  They've got the teachers frothing at the mouth thinking they will end up with significant raises if the package passes.  An extra $40 a month or so raise wouldn't really puff my skirt.  The part which is telling to me is using the phrase "lock box" in the ads.  You know that is total bullshit.

[davideinstein]

It seems like it because it is.  They've got the teachers frothing at the mouth thinking they will end up with significant raises if the package passes.  An extra $40 a month or so raise wouldn't really puff my skirt.  The part which is telling to me is using the phrase "lock box" in the ads.  You know that is total bullshit.

Provisions in it that weren't in the lottery one though. I just want education funded...

[Hoss]

Provisions in it that weren't in the lottery one though. I just want education funded...

Then make the state legislators make the tough decisions.  Sales tax is too easy but it hurts those who can't afford it.  Another way.  I'm vehemently opposed.

[Conan71]

Provisions in it that weren't in the lottery one though. I just want education funded...

"Provisions" are great so long as this legislature or future ones don't shut off the spigot from prior funding sources once the new one is established.  The problem is, Oklahoma's legislature has the worst or near worst track record for education funding.  They have not earned any trust that they are really committed to it or when a budget crisis hits that they won't hit education first while ensuring that nice production tax breaks for the energy sector will be protected.

The other issue I do not like about a full penny sales tax increase aside from it being regressive, is a sales tax of more than 9.5% in Tulsa will kill convention business.  This is a factor planners consider prior to awarding their shows and conventions to cities.  Tulsa would become one of the nation's cities with the highest sales tax rate.  Our sales tax revenue growth is already pretty flat without coming up with new ways to shoo off shows and conventions.

Yet one more issue I have is 19.25% going to the State Regents.  As long as they continue to fund and operate schools like Panhandle State in Goodwell while cock-blocking Tulsa's true need for a four year public university, I'm very reluctant to provide more funding which ends up in the hands of the OKC metro and funding the rural sprawl of lesser colleges.

Finally, would a $5000 per year teacher raise really improve the educational outcome for our kids?  I realize a raise would stop some of the brain drain, but in some cases aren't we just rewarding the very worst instructors with a non-merit pay raise?

And please, people:  quit holding your breath over the legislature ever dropping sales tax on food and clothing.  It will never happen in our lifetime.

[patric]

I'm a yes lean on 779, but it just seems like another rip off. What happened to the lottery money? Now we have two regressive taxes?

Our states bait-and-switch education funding is definitely in need of discussion.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=19689.msg312376#msg312376

[AquaMan]

It seems like usual, you guys have painted us all into a corner. There will be no action by legislators to bring our standing up from the VERY WORST funding of education of all the country. None. Yet, you can bet the legislature will remain dominated by the worst supporters of public education we've ever had because we just vote red or redder. That's two strikes. Then we sucker for the high fastball when we say vote no on a sales tax that goes to teachers because the taxes will be regressive, too high for business, and besides its the legislatures job to fund it properly and it unfairly rewards those teachers who didn't bolt for Texas and Kansas so are therefore responsible for the poor student education outcomes.

To me that means no action and at least two more years of no action til we can get Failin' out of office to provide some leadership outside of religious and moral issues. However, if you do vote to support what will likely be a two year at most tax increase dedicated to education, we mitigate the teacher loss, reward college graduates for deciding on a career of self sacrifice for future outcomes AND you send a message to the dumbassed legislature that we are serious about education and are willing to fund it ourselves if they won't. Next, THEY have to think about their phoney baloney jobs and pay schedules.

So, nothing or self flagellation for the greater good. I'm voting for it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Provisions in it that weren't in the lottery one though. I just want education funded...

This won't do it.  The have Toby Keith lying about a "lockbox" - well, that was what 1017 did and the lottery goes to education "as promised".  What is missing is on the other side, where the State Clown Show can still divert all the general fund money's they want to other things - as they do all the time.  So, yeah, the sales tax will go to schools mostly, but it will be nowhere near enough to cover it completely and funding will still be cut as long as the electorate keeps putting these a-holes back in office.

As for Toby, well like all the narcissistic rich guys who blather on about tax cuts, he wants them cut as long as they are his taxes getting cut.  IF we were to properly run the fiscal house we live in he would lose his extra 1/4% income tax cut that Failin' and Clown Show gave the richest among us.  And since he likely buys all his big ticket items online to avoid sales tax - if he is even 'in town' when he buys stuff - well, it won't hurt him to have that extra 1% added onto the rest of us.

[Townsend]

I'm pretty sure 779 will cause an increase in internet sales and a decrease in local shopping.

On the other hand, is this subject on the correct thread?

[AquaMan]

Probably should be moved. Sapulpa has one of the highest tax rates IIRC. I wonder how its affected them? If it increases internet purchases then that adds even more pressure to legislators to come clean and do their jobs or there won't be enough tax collections to pay their rent. I have no doubt that if this passes, the legislators will do a shell game with it like they did the lottery and the casinos. But there are only two options: vote them out or be the laughingstock of the country with the brain drain accelerating.

[swake]

This won't do it.  The have Toby Keith lying about a "lockbox" - well, that was what 1017 did and the lottery goes to education "as promised".  What is missing is on the other side, where the State Clown Show can still divert all the general fund money's they want to other things - as they do all the time.  So, yeah, the sales tax will go to schools mostly, but it will be nowhere near enough to cover it completely and funding will still be cut as long as the electorate keeps putting these a-holes back in office.

As for Toby, well like all the narcissistic rich guys who blather on about tax cuts, he wants them cut as long as they are his taxes getting cut.  IF we were to properly run the fiscal house we live in he would lose his extra 1/4% income tax cut that Failin' and Clown Show gave the richest among us.  And since he likely buys all his big ticket items online to avoid sales tax - if he is even 'in town' when he buys stuff - well, it won't hurt him to have that extra 1% added onto the rest of us.

I am a reluctant vote yes. I don't like sales tax, it's regressive and hurts poor people. I would rather income tax and property tax pay for schools.

That said, I have a  child in school right now, my son is a sophomore and things are really bad right now. I want schools to improve for him before he graduates and I really don't see any changes in the near future here without this tax. Republicans have pushed this state to the brink over the last 10 years and still the public laps up their rhetoric. The very poor people that this tax will hurt are mostly Trump voters.

99% of Trump bumper stickers are on aging beater cars and pickups with dents and a couple of different paint colors. I've seen exactly one Trump sticker on a nice car, a new Audi on Sunday with the larger "Proud Deplorable" sticker larger than the Trump sticker, so you know right where his head is.

I know that over time the legislature will steal these funds and fund even more tax breaks for the rich. I'm certainly not rich but I do ok and those very tax breaks will mean more money in my pocket than those sales taxes will take.

So selfishly, I will vote yes, for my son mostly and as an added benefit I get a slightly lower taxes. And I get to stick it to dumb Trump voters. I guess in this case it's a win/win/win.