President Trump- The Implications

[heironymouspasparagus]

More important news from New York!

http://nypost.com/2017/10/31/my-boyfriend-dumped-me-because-of-my-vagina-smell/

(Sorry, it was under your NY shooting article and the title made me laugh.)

Whoa!  That really took a turn...

[patric]

Horrible terrorist attack in New York. What's worse? No one is talking about Russia right now. Heartbreaking news to Swake.

When its never too early to politicize a tragedy: Its Sen. Schumer's fault.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/01/extreme-right-gins-up-a-culprit-for-n-y-terror-attack-chuck-schumer

[swake]

When its never too early to politicize a tragedy: Its Sen. Schumer's fault.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/01/extreme-right-gins-up-a-culprit-for-n-y-terror-attack-chuck-schumer

Trump -
White guy shoots and kills 58 people and injures 546 – Very sad, don't bring politics into this, nothing could have stopped it.
Muslim guy runs over people killing 8 people and injuring 12 – Don't be politically correct, we need more extreme vetting! bad evil immigrants! all Chuck Schumer's fault!

[erfalf]

Trump -
White guy shoots and kills 58 people and injures 546 – Very sad, don't bring politics into this, nothing could have stopped it.
Muslim guy runs over people killing 8 people and injuring 12 – Don't be politically correct, we need more extreme vetting! bad evil immigrants! all Chuck Schumer's fault!

Trump Haters -
White guy shoots and kills 58 people and injures 546 – We need more extreme vetting and heck let's just ban guns. All (Everything is) Trump's freaking fault
Muslim guy runs over people killing 8 people and injuring 12 – Very sad, beautiful religion, don't bring politics into this, nothing could have stopped it.

It cuts both ways...

There is one MAJOR difference. Within the bounds of the constitution as it exists today, we could likely eliminate all of these type of terror events, by literally banning imigration. Now, that would never pass congress, but I'm just saying.

[swake]

Trump Haters -
White guy shoots and kills 58 people and injures 546 – We need more extreme vetting and heck let's just ban guns. All (Everything is) Trump's freaking fault
Muslim guy runs over people killing 8 people and injuring 12 – Very sad, beautiful religion, don't bring politics into this, nothing could have stopped it.

It cuts both ways...

There is one MAJOR difference. Within the bounds of the constitution as it exists today, we could likely eliminate all of these type of terror events, by literally banning imigration. Now, that would never pass congress, but I'm just saying.

Within the bounds of the constitution we can ban assault weapons and modifications that turn semi-auto rifles into automatic rifles. Hell, within the bounds of the constitution you can remove the right to bear arms, though I don't recall anyone advocating that. Nor do I recall that anyone has said there's nothing that can be done to stop radical islam. A really good start might be to not help radicalize Muslims that are already here. Maybe a certain president might not blame an entire religion for the actions of a few members of that religion. Maybe that president doesn't bring Alt-Right anti-Muslim bigots into the highest levels of the administration?

[Conan71]

Within the bounds of the constitution we can ban assault weapons and modifications that turn semi-auto rifles into automatic rifles. Hell, within the bounds of the constitution you can remove the right to bear arms, though I don't recall anyone advocating that. Nor do I recall that anyone has said there's nothing that can be done to stop radical islam. A really good start might be to not help radicalize Muslims that are already here. Maybe a certain president might not blame an entire religion for the actions of a few members of that religion. Maybe that president doesn't bring Alt-Right anti-Muslim bigots into the highest levels of the administration?

Radical Muslim attacks happened under Obama's watch as well.  Whomever is in the White House has little to do with the hatred some feel toward the US.  Our Israel policy has little to do with the hatred some feel toward the US and I suspect if we ever cut ties with everyone in the Middle East that still would not end the hatred some feel toward the US.

We could ban semi-auto weapons, we could ban parts which can make them full auto, we could ban immigration but you cannot stop every threat with laws.  Laws are broken every second of every day. 

For perspective on what gun bans really accomplish, my understanding is Sandy Hook happened with a weapon which was prohibited in the state of Connecticut.

[cannon_fodder]

There is one MAJOR difference. Within the bounds of the constitution as it exists today, we could likely eliminate all of these type of terror events, by literally banning imigration. Now, that would never pass congress, but I'm just saying.

Shenanigans.  Ineffectual policy based on fear is a truly stupid way to govern, "I'm just saying."

How many times do people have to point out that statistically immigrants commit less crimes than Americans by birth right.  Less murders, less violent crime, less rapes, less property crimes, and on and on.   IMMIGRATION MAKES US SAFER.  Banning all immigration will increase the crime rate in the United States.

And eliminate terror events?

Except the 58 dead in Vegas (not terrorism if a white guy opens up with automatic weapons)
Except the people killed in San Francisco shooting (not terrorism when a white guy shoots up a warehouse)
The 5 people killed in Orange County Florida (not terrorism when a white guy gets fired and kills coworkers)

Hell, that only gets through the widely known mass killings since June of 2017!

If we are talking about clear terrorism, banning immigration would not have stopped:

100+  people shot for being at a gay nightclub
Or a dozen people getting shot at Planned Parenthood in Colorado
Or a dozen people shot for praying at a black church in SC

If it only counts as terrorism when Muslims kill people for political reasons...

36 people shot by a natural born US citizen in San Bernadino and her Pakistani husband (but but but surely the American was only bad because of them immigrants!  All evidence about mass killings above excluded)


If you think you need to immigrate to the US to commit an act of terrorism?  There was this one time when a group of expats flew a damn plan into the World Trade Center and killed thousands of people.  They weren't trying to immigrate to the US.  So we better ban all immigrants, students, tourists, and visitors to the United States.  To keep us safe.

Islam has a serious problem with fundamentalists who think it is their job to try to force their beliefs on everyone and that its fair to murder people who do not share their beliefs.  Sadly, they are not alone.  An immigration ban would certainly stop some attacks, but as a percent of people affected and as well as percent of attacks - it would be sadly insignificant.

Hiding in a hole or changing the entire nature of the country because we are afraid is a foolish idea that wouldn't work anyway.  But thanks for that healthy dose of xenophobia!

[heironymouspasparagus]

When its never too early to politicize a tragedy: Its Sen. Schumer's fault.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/01/extreme-right-gins-up-a-culprit-for-n-y-terror-attack-chuck-schumer

Again, it's Trump's lies - Schumer was one of those who was pushing to get rid of that diversity program.  As he knows, but still lies about.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Trump Haters -
White guy shoots and kills 58 people and injures 546 – We need more extreme vetting and heck let's just ban guns. All (Everything is) Trump's freaking fault
Muslim guy runs over people killing 8 people and injuring 12 – Very sad, beautiful religion, don't bring politics into this, nothing could have stopped it.

It cuts both ways...

There is one MAJOR difference. Within the bounds of the constitution as it exists today, we could likely eliminate all of these type of terror events, by literally banning imigration. Now, that would never pass congress, but I'm just saying.

Right....like that worked so well in Las Vegas.  That was one of "those" type attacks.  Or Timothy McVeigh.  Or any one of dozens of mass shootings around the country in the last 10+ or so years.  None of which had anything to do with immigration or immigrants.


Edit;
And then I saw cannon's post...

[swake]

Radical Muslim attacks happened under Obama's watch as well.  Whomever is in the White House has little to do with the hatred some feel toward the US.  Our Israel policy has little to do with the hatred some feel toward the US and I suspect if we ever cut ties with everyone in the Middle East that still would not end the hatred some feel toward the US.

We could ban semi-auto weapons, we could ban parts which can make them full auto, we could ban immigration but you cannot stop every threat with laws.  Laws are broken every second of every day. 

For perspective on what gun bans really accomplish, my understanding is Sandy Hook happened with a weapon which was prohibited in the state of Connecticut.

Yes guns deaths happen even in countries and places that ban guns.

I disagree that who is in the White House has little bearing on hatred for the United States, especially with Muslims that live in the United States. I further disagree that our Israel policy has little to do with it, but that's going to be a larger issue with Arabs and other Muslims in the Middle East. Often dictators, autocrats and terrorist leaders use the United States as a boogieman to fight against. This is especially true in the Middle East where Israel is the "evil" that the Boogieman protects. That doesn't mean I disagree with protecting Israel, but we must also protect the stateless Palestinians as we protect Israel so we ensure we do the right thing and have the moral high ground.  Our constant worldwide drone strikes don't help either.

Immigration had nothing to do with this man being radicalized. He wasn't radical when he came here and remained that way for years. No vetting would have stopped his being allowed in. Since 9/11 all of our major terrorism attacks from Radical Islam are home grown by people that became radical here. Many of them by Americans born in this country.

To fight radical Islam in this country we have to first be the moral example, something we are doing a horrible job of right now. We need to make sure that resident Muslims feel as welcome and as American as anyone else, fight bigotry against them as you would bigotry against Christians or Jews. Next, we need to fight Radical Islam at it source, specially the men who are the Imams preaching hate both here and online, just like we need to fight those so called "Christian" Blood and Soil idiots. Even more important we need to stop the flow of money and support for Radical Islam that comes from places like our "allies" Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

Last, many of the people that have become radicalized here also suffer from mental illness, just like the Sandy Hook shooter, and the Orlando shooter and I think we all suspect the Vegas shooter had to have as well.  We have to do better in identifying and helping those people. This guy in New York getting out of the Truck with fake guns sounds like a classic mental illness suicide by cop. And we need to stop the mentally ill in particular from having guns, how many more people would have died in New York if the drive had real guns in the truck with him?

[erfalf]

Right....like that worked so well in Las Vegas.  That was one of "those" type attacks.  Or Timothy McVeigh.  Or any one of dozens of mass shootings around the country in the last 10+ or so years.  None of which had anything to do with immigration or immigrants.


Edit;
And then I saw cannon's post...

So swake is allowed to distinguish between the two events but I'm not? Got it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

So swake is allowed to distinguish between the two events but I'm not? Got it.

How did he distinguish between the two??   I saw him writing the satirical inverse of what Trump and the Minions are blathering about... is that it??  Reply 1907.

Your reply was an attempt to advance a satirical comment about how the groups are responding.  But it's not satire when it is true - that is truly how Trump is responding.  "Trump haters"...well, in this case, as in so many others related to his lies, they are reporting the facts.


Trump also lied in similar fashion about Schumer being responsible for promoting the diversity program - which is exactly the opposite of what Schumer tried to do. 

[swake]

Serious question that I'm sure goes to the heart of Mueller's investigation.

Why would an American presidential candidate hire Paul Manafort?

His last US election before this one was 1996 advising Bob Dole. The 20 years after that he worked around the world working for a lot of shady people, arms dealers, rebel leaders even the Pakistani ISI. Starting in 2004 he spent his time working in Ukraine and Russia working for various people and groups with one thing in common, they were all backed by Putin. All of this was well known. He in fact didn't actually close his office in Ukraine until May 2016, two months after he started work with Trump.

So why hire a dirty political operative who hasn't worked in American elections in 20 years with all that baggage and all those links to Russia and Putin?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Serious question that I'm sure goes to the heart of Mueller's investigation.

Why would an American presidential candidate hire Paul Manafort?

His last US election before this one was 1996 advising Bob Dole. The 20 years after that he worked around the world working for a lot of shady people, arms dealers, rebel leaders even the Pakistani ISI. Starting in 2004 he spent his time working in Ukraine and Russia working for various people and groups with one thing in common, they were all backed by Putin. All of this was well known. He in fact didn't actually close his office in Ukraine until May 2016, two months after he started work with Trump.

So why hire a dirty political operative who hasn't worked in American elections in 20 years with all that baggage and all those links to Russia and Putin?

Duh...because it's Trump...!!

Dirtiest of the dirty.  Most vile of all.  Criminal, pedophile.  Manafort would be the perfect fit.

[hello]

Serious question that I'm sure goes to the heart of Mueller's investigation.

Why would an American presidential candidate hire Paul Manafort?


So why hire a dirty political operative who hasn't worked in American elections in 20 years with all that baggage and all those links to Russia and Putin?

The only reason to hire Manafort is to collude with Russia.