President Trump- The Implications

[heironymouspasparagus]

For me, the above was the absolute last straw given the condition my mother was in before she passed away.  I spent 10 or more years of my life willingly and without thought helping her in our childhood home.  Not just helping, but I was for all intents and purposes a live in caregiver (not that she was especially difficult to care for, although there were some things she still could not do without help).  She never asked help of me until she tried doing it herself.  My role model for strength and everything else.  If that sounds sappy, then tough.  She was tougher than any person I know..going what she went through and still living for 31 more years after it.

All those were the last straw for me.


Yeah!  She was the one who taught you how to use a spoon!   How big an effort was that...?  Sounds like she did good.

[heironymouspasparagus]

As I have said many times.  Hijacked Republican Party.  Co-opted religion. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/06/books/chapters/gods-politics.html?mcubz=0&_r=0

[Hoss]

All those were the last straw for me.


Yeah!  She was the one who taught you how to use a spoon!   How big an effort was that...?  Sounds like she did good.

What she and her mother actually did is likely the one thing that makes me hated by a few on here.  Gave me my ideology.  Both her and her mother/my grandmother were staunch liberals.  I learned to love my fellow man from both of those ladies.  They taught me that doing the right thing is always the option.  And I'm not saying conservatives don't love their fellow man...at least not back when I was growing up it wasn't that way.

I see what they do now though and I have to scratch my head in wonder...

[Conan71]

So cynical! The electoral college has failed us more than once. I think there is bipartisan support to kill it. Most of my more conservative friends have supported that for years.

Pruitt is a disaster. Trump choosing him and not taking Fallin is indeed a dubious set of accomplishments. I notice a large group of candidates lining up to replace her. Any of them look fine to me by comparison. Competence is the theme.

Yeah, the only problem with Tump criticizing non payment of dues, besides the obvious hypocrisy of him not paying his own bills, is that the fees were not mandatory. They were goals set that don't have to be met for two more years. But he didn't let that get in his way of being bold cause its doubtful he ever read NATO materials relying instead on briefings from his advisors.

Far as I know the Electoral College is working as the forefathers intended to keep one or two states from electing our President.  If that was not the purpose, feel free to correct me.

[Hoss]

Think I'll leave this right here....

[heironymouspasparagus]

Think I'll leave this right here....

Yep... Happy Memorial Day!!

Note the subtle difference...

[heironymouspasparagus]

Far as I know the Electoral College is working as the forefathers intended to keep one or two states from electing our President.  If that was not the purpose, feel free to correct me.

That was the purpose..sort of - to keep large states from bulldozing small ones.  But that is exactly what happened this time.  Two or three states elected our President.  (See my notes in President Hillary - the implications)

[heironymouspasparagus]

What she and her mother actually did is likely the one thing that makes me hated by a few on here.  Gave me my ideology.  Both her and her mother/my grandmother were staunch liberals.  I learned to love my fellow man from both of those ladies.  They taught me that doing the right thing is always the option.  And I'm not saying conservatives don't love their fellow man...at least not back when I was growing up it wasn't that way.

I see what they do now though and I have to scratch my head in wonder...

Real conservatives aren't that way at all.  It is the Hijacked Republican Party that IS that way.  It is the advocates of an authoritarian and hyper-nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.   It is the definition of fascism. 





an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

[guido911]

More positive work from Trump.

7. Out of Paris Climate BS.

8.  Keystone pipeline delivering oil.

[patric]

8.  Keystone pipeline delivering oil.

To China.

[Breadburner]

More winning today...Not to late to jump on the train....

[heironymouspasparagus]

More positive work from Trump.

7. Out of Paris Climate BS.

8.  Keystone pipeline delivering oil.

Spoken just as if you knew anything about either beyond the sound bite.

[AquaMan]

Que the Soul Train theme....CHUUUUUUUUMP TRAIN........

Coal burning train belching black smoke across the once fertile plains!

[erfalf]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/paris-can-waitit-was-a-bad-deal

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/angela-merkel-and-the-insult-of-trumps-paris-climate-accord-withdrawal

These two are supposed to be on the same page. Trump bad, so any decision he makes is bad (or going to kill people).

I still chalk dumping the Paris Accord as a success no matter how minimal it really is. Considering the opposite decision would be a loss for the country how can you not.

Plus if you are getting traditionally anti-Trump media to write pieces about how this was probably not a bad decision (as back handed as they possibly can), that has to mean something.

[cannon_fodder]

Far as I know the Electoral College is working as the forefathers intended to keep one or two states from electing our President.  If that was not the purpose, feel free to correct me.

The electoral college is working basically as intended. The question is if it is relevant today in the same fashion it was in 1776.

We are no longer a collection of States.  Before the civil war we were "these United States" and loyalty law with the state.  After the civil war we have ever since been "the United States" with a standing national army, ever increasing transients between the states, and the issue of loyalty to state before nation was killed on the battlefield. The State itself no longer elects Senators. The vice president is now a selection of the president.  Political parties have a firm grip.  And electors in the college are now all selected by popular vote.  And electors are no longer expected act as a buffer between the electorate and the Presidency - rather they affirm the outcome of the election. Much has changed.

So asking if the electoral college is still relevant is definitely worth considering. I thought it still helped protect minority rights, precisely for the reason you stated:  you don't want a few big states dictating policy for the entire nation.  But it was pointed out to me that without the electoral college, they wouldn't.  The votes would be split, popular vote isn't winner take all for each state. Arguably the electoral college could result in the very thing it purports to defend against.

California
2012:  7.8mil for Obama,  4.8mil for Romney
2016:  8.7mil for Clinton,  4.4mil for Trump

Texas
2012: 4.5 mil Obama, 3.3 mil Obama
2016: 3.8 mil Clinton, 4.7 mil Trump

Neither delivers all their votes to one direction or another.  Each citizen in each state gets to have a vote in the Presidential election.  Currently, as a Republican in California your vote doesn't really count in the Presidential election.  As a Democrat in Texas, your vote doesn't matter (in Oklahoma a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate has basically been a throw away since 1968). This creates regional strains in large states, as the eastern valleys and north Californians are relegated irrelevant by the population of the cities. 

In Florida, half the time your Republican vote doesn't matter, and half the time your Democratic vote doesn't matter - the state is nearly equally divided.  Same with Ohio, Iowa, Michigan, etc.
These "swing" states are all that matter in a winner take all election.  In a representative election, the whims of a few swing voters in one state don't get to decide the entire outcome.  This is reflected in voter turnouts in states in which your vote "doesn't matter" because its clear who is going to win.


And of course there is the basic question of representation.  When the college was setup the disparity between the states was not nearly as extreme as it is today.  That could serve as a reason why we need to keep it, or a reason why it should go.  But the disparity in voting power is growing:

In Oklahoma, one elector is selected for each 403k people.  We sit right in the middle.

In New York, one elector represents 520k people.  510 for Florida. 508k for California.  481k for Texas.

In Wyoming, each elector represents 142k people. 165k in Vermont. 174k in North Dakota. 207k in Rhode Island.

This means that when it comes to presidential elections, someone in Wyoming has more than three times the voting power of someone in New York.  As demographic trends continue to play out, this disparity will grow and grow.  With the winner take all system, Wyoming almost doesn't matter anyway - as their 3 vote winner take all tally is more than made up by California's 55 vote winner take all (shutting out what would be 15-20 electoral votes for Republicans). 

That goes the other way too - Democrats continue to flood into Texas both from south of the border and from other areas of the country.  Trump won with a 9% margin, and that margin has been tightening.  The change is not eminent, but similar issues exist in Colorado, Arizona, etc.  As cities grow, the rural vote rarely grows as fast - potentially creating an issue for Republicans in this generation (at which point Republicans will be whining to ditch the system, and Democrats will praise the founding fathers for being so wise).


Overall, the system is a historic oddity.  I'm not sure it has entirely outlived its usefulness, but I think a conversation about it is worthwhile.  Currently, the Republicans won't want to see a change because they perceive it as helping them (and historically, the Republicans are 4/4 on winning the Presidency and losing the popular vote.  Democrats have never done it).  So as a practical matter, it isn't going to change anytime soon. And that's OK, messing with a basic tenant of our nation shouldn't be something done quickly.