President Trump- The Implications

[heironymouspasparagus]

heir, this is actually who I was talking about. 

Was pretty sure it wasn't me, 'cause I had already talked about supporting talking.  It's always easier/cheaper/less bloody to talk than any other "solution".  As we have proven with our imperialistic voyeurism time after time.

[heironymouspasparagus]

ACA was on it's last leg before Trump was even elected. And the situation in Iran is arguably no different (sans billions of dollars no longer flowing to Iran) than with the deal. Those are poor examples. While the reasoning in public may have been flawed, when did you start believing anything Trump says. Or do you only believe him when it makes him look bad, kinda like the guy you just made fun of.

Will combine this and the net neutrality reply...


The big difference with Iran is the lies and BS spread by the RWRE that somehow we "paid" Iran hundreds of millions for some unspecified, not really needed reason.  Which is just more of the same old Fake Fox News distortion machine.  ALL the money sent - plus hundreds of millions more that we still have - was Iran's money.  It was illegally being held as 'hostage' - as in having no due process - for some specious nonsense reason...  It was a vestige of the entire false construct put together to justify going to Iraq and destroying it in the wrong war.  When the real cause of the problem - Saudi Arabia - continues to be our best buddies...but then, Oil !!

You cannot evade, avoid, or dismiss the history of the region and expect people to just "get over it" when it continues right up to today.  Unless one is as ignorant and has as little knowledge or sense of history as all of Trump's fans (and Bush's) show over and over.   One of the Minions can dismiss these things as trivial - which is exactly how they are portrayed by the RWRE - but to the people experiencing them, it is not trivial.  

Couple of examples outside the Iranian revolution - Ireland and their 'troubles' from recent decades.   This goes back to the vicious occupation by the English for 400 hundred years.  Passed on from generation to generation until they finally had a successful partial revolution that took back a big portion of the country in the early 1900's.  They couldn't quite wrest the whole country from the imperialistic invaders, but that just led to an entire 20th century war that has slowed down to a near stop, but it is not over yet until the country is again unified.  (There is that 'unification' word/concept again - just like VietNam, Korea, Germany...)   The biggest lie out of the Irish occupation is the "Famine".  Yes, there was a blight that destroyed much of the potato crop that covered ALL of Europe causing considerable suffering.  But nowhere else did 25% of the population either die of starvation or forced to leave the country.  That was a concerted, conscious, effort by England to decimate the population of Ireland.  The proof is the FACT that Ireland exported - to England - MORE than 5 times that amount of food it would have taken to feed every man, woman, and child on the island.  Over 1 million died from this overlord induced starvation and pogrom of extermination.  Over 1 million more were forced from the country to keep from starving.

So just keeping 1 part and only exporting the remaining 4 parts would have meant no one starved, and most could have stuck around if they so chose.  But that didn't follow the agenda.  


China is another one where memories are long and I submit that the history still plays a part of policy - the Boxer rebellion - where the US and England came into China and forced them to accept 'trade' from outside.  Which consisted of again, in a concerted, conscious, imperialistic effort to subjugate, making them trade goods from China for opium sent TO China.  Don't think for an instant that is gone out of the collective knowledge in the country.  Nor what we did supporting Chiang Kai Shek (sp?) after WWII fighting against the winners, Mao and company.  Which led to an entire set of fiascos from Korea to VietNam to stuff going on in Central/South America today.  

Iran review - that is where we created a coup to get rid of the legitimate ruler and install the Shah as dictator.  Who did worse things that our buddy Saddam Hussein, but we kept him in power as long as we could.

And haven't even reviewed the abysmal record with Native Americans - that continued up until 1976 and beyond!  I know...old story to you and many here, but still very recent memory to the families still alive that lived those "joyous moments" of civilization.


And net neutrality - another one of those things, like pretty much all the medicines sold in this country - that was developed and paid for by us - with taxpayer money!  That makes it a public utility!  The public paid for it!  Since WE made the up front investment, what makes that different from any other so-called Capitalist endeavor?   We ARE the ones that paid for it,  we ARE the ones that should reap the benefit of that IP - NOT just a small percentage of the 1%'ers.   If you can't understand that case study, then you should go take a entry level business course somewhere!    And step away from the Fake Fox News Lies and Distortion Machine!

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and buddies spent hundreds and sometimes even thousands of dollars getting their enterprises started.  And they rightfully reap the rewards from that!   WE spent billions developing the net, so WE deserve to reap the rewards for that in the form of fair access at reasonable cost.  We the People should be getting much, much, more than bad treatment from the various entities we have licensed to use the technology!

[Hoss]

Will combine this and the net neutrality reply...


The big difference with Iran is the lies and BS spread by the RWRE that somehow we "paid" Iran hundreds of millions for some unspecified, not really needed reason.  Which is just more of the same old Fake Fox News distortion machine.  ALL the money sent - plus hundreds of millions more that we still have - was Iran's money.  It was illegally being held as 'hostage' - as in having no due process - for some specious nonsense reason...  It was a vestige of the entire false construct put together to justify going to Iraq and destroying it in the wrong war.  When the real cause of the problem - Saudi Arabia - continues to be our best buddies...but then, Oil !!

You cannot evade, avoid, or dismiss the history of the region and expect people to just "get over it" when it continues right up to today.  Unless one is as ignorant and has as little knowledge or sense of history as all of Trump's fans (and Bush's) show over and over.   One of the Minions can dismiss these things as trivial - which is exactly how they are portrayed by the RWRE - but to the people experiencing them, it is not trivial.  

Couple of examples outside the Iranian revolution - Ireland and their 'troubles' from recent decades.   This goes back to the vicious occupation by the English for 400 hundred years.  Passed on from generation to generation until they finally had a successful partial revolution that took back a big portion of the country in the early 1900's.  They couldn't quite wrest the whole country from the imperialistic invaders, but that just led to an entire 20th century war that has slowed down to a near stop, but it is not over yet until the country is again unified.  (There is that 'unification' word/concept again - just like VietNam, Korea, Germany...)   The biggest lie out of the Irish occupation is the "Famine".  Yes, there was a blight that destroyed much of the potato crop that covered ALL of Europe causing considerable suffering.  But nowhere else did 25% of the population either die of starvation or forced to leave the country.  That was a concerted, conscious, effort by England to decimate the population of Ireland.  The proof is the FACT that Ireland exported - to England - MORE than 5 times that amount of food it would have taken to feed every man, woman, and child on the island.  Over 1 million died from this overlord induced starvation and pogrom of extermination.  Over 1 million more were forced from the country to keep from starving.

So just keeping 1 part and only exporting the remaining 4 parts would have meant no one starved, and most could have stuck around if they so chose.  But that didn't follow the agenda.  


China is another one where memories are long and I submit that the history still plays a part of policy - the Boxer rebellion - where the US and England came into China and forced them to accept 'trade' from outside.  Which consisted of again, in a concerted, conscious, imperialistic effort to subjugate, making them trade goods from China for opium sent TO China.  Don't think for an instant that is gone out of the collective knowledge in the country.  Nor what we did supporting Chiang Kai Shek (sp?) after WWII fighting against the winners, Mao and company.  Which led to an entire set of fiascos from Korea to VietNam to stuff going on in Central/South America today.  

Iran review - that is where we created a coup to get rid of the legitimate ruler and install the Shah as dictator.  Who did worse things that our buddy Saddam Hussein, but we kept him in power as long as we could.

And haven't even reviewed the abysmal record with Native Americans - that continued up until 1976 and beyond!  I know...old story to you and many here, but still very recent memory to the families still alive that lived those "joyous moments" of civilization.


And net neutrality - another one of those things, like pretty much all the medicines sold in this country - that was developed and paid for by us - with taxpayer money!  That makes it a public utility!  The public paid for it!  Since WE made the up front investment, what makes that different from any other so-called Capitalist endeavor?   We ARE the ones that paid for it,  we ARE the ones that should reap the benefit of that IP - NOT just a small percentage of the 1%'ers.   If you can't understand that case study, then you should go take a entry level business course somewhere!    And step away from the Fake Fox News Lies and Distortion Machine!

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and buddies spent hundreds and sometimes even thousands of dollars getting their enterprises started.  And they rightfully reap the rewards from that!   WE spent billions developing the net, so WE deserve to reap the rewards for that in the form of fair access at reasonable cost.  We the People should be getting much, much, more than bad treatment from the various entities we have licensed to use the technology!

As far as NN goes, any chance I get to haul these out.

John Oliver, explaining as only he can in 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU

And again in 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vuuZt7wak

[heironymouspasparagus]

As far as NN goes, any chance I get to haul these out.

John Oliver, explaining as only he can in 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU

And again in 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vuuZt7wak

I am writing a small app and am going to write a user agreement.  I will put the entire text of Mein Kampf inside it!   So if you run into an inordinately long, complex user agreement, it is either one of the big software companies...or if longer, it will be me!

[erfalf]

In response to the long past a few posts up.

That's some interesting stuff you have going on but I'll give it a shot.
On Iran.
I'll give you that the term "paid" may be misleading, however when I say it, I mean it in the sense that we gave them access to a world of customers that they were in essence banned from prior to that point. And on the point of the "pallets of cash" thing, while it may have technically been theirs, we still didn't have to give it to them. They took the steps by overthrowing their government and taking American hostages. If Trump went and took some Iranian hostages, and was then a dick to Iran and caused our relationship to cease to exist, I doubt you would then be sympathetic to us because...well...it was OUR money to start with. You sure as heck don't let us off the hook for things that happened hundreds of years ago. Why are you starting now?
Even today the government of the people of Iran doesn't care about  the interest of the people. All we did was exacerbate the problem. How exactly does this help us absolve ourselves of any wrongs that we may have done.

Regarding Net Neutrality, that is some serious Colbert Report logic going on there. How much stuff has been developed through government grants or through government agencies? A LOT. They did not however invent the lines and materials that are at issue here. On your Gates and Jobs, they all relied on previous investments, but they took them and advanced them. JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE industry has done with the internet. You actually gave an example that disproves your point.
By your logic, we should then take back infant formula, GPS systems, Google, the use of bar codes, many types of tires, pretty much any vaccine, and all wind turbines. It's illogical. I honestly am floored that you are using this as reason to make this argument.

[erfalf]

As far as NN goes, any chance I get to haul these out.

John Oliver, explaining as only he can in 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU

And again in 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vuuZt7wak

It has finally occurred to me the perfect nickname for you: Dean Martin.

And heir is Jerry Lewis.

Invariably heir makes a really REALLY long diatribe, almost always followed by a "what he said" by Hoss.

[Hoss]

It has finally occurred to me the perfect nickname for you: Dean Martin.

And heir is Jerry Lewis.

Invariably heir makes a really REALLY long diatribe, almost always followed by a "what he said" by Hoss.

Gonna bet dollars to donuts that you didn't watch either of those.

At least both of those guys were relevant.  Unlike you.

[erfalf]

Gonna bet dollars to donuts that you didn't watch either of those.

At least both of those guys were relevant.  Unlike you.

I could only muster my way through about 10 minutes honestly. I understand this is likely your primary source of political edumacation, but let me tell ya, you could do much MUCH better. Read a paper. Challenge yourself. Half truths for chuckles is not exactly doing that for you.

[Breadburner]

Can anyone identify the T.F.N C.j.C member throwing the "Hossy Fit"....

[Hoss]

Can anyone identify the T.F.N C.j.C member throwing the "Hossy Fit"....

Nice to know I have a place to live in case mine doesn't work out.  Your head.  Rent free.   

[heironymouspasparagus]

In response to the long past a few posts up.

That's some interesting stuff you have going on but I'll give it a shot.
On Iran.
I'll give you that the term "paid" may be misleading, however when I say it, I mean it in the sense that we gave them access to a world of customers that they were in essence banned from prior to that point. And on the point of the "pallets of cash" thing, while it may have technically been theirs, we still didn't have to give it to them. They took the steps by overthrowing their government and taking American hostages. If Trump went and took some Iranian hostages, and was then a dick to Iran and caused our relationship to cease to exist, I doubt you would then be sympathetic to us because...well...it was OUR money to start with. You sure as heck don't let us off the hook for things that happened hundreds of years ago. Why are you starting now?
Even today the government of the people of Iran doesn't care about  the interest of the people. All we did was exacerbate the problem. How exactly does this help us absolve ourselves of any wrongs that we may have done.

Regarding Net Neutrality, that is some serious Colbert Report logic going on there. How much stuff has been developed through government grants or through government agencies? A LOT. They did not however invent the lines and materials that are at issue here. On your Gates and Jobs, they all relied on previous investments, but they took them and advanced them. JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE industry has done with the internet. You actually gave an example that disproves your point.
By your logic, we should then take back infant formula, GPS systems, Google, the use of bar codes, many types of tires, pretty much any vaccine, and all wind turbines. It's illogical. I honestly am floored that you are using this as reason to make this argument.

So you think what we did for most of the last century was fine, but when people reacted against it, THEY are the bad ones!  Yep, Fake Fox News every step of the way.   If you actually knew anything beyond the past 3 sound bites, you would know that they did NOT have a revolution against their own government - they revolted against the puppet government we put in place in the early 50's.  That is the truly sad part here - that you can't even understand something as simple as real history.

So even though it "may have technically been theirs", you believe that for us to keep something that we took from someone else is not stealing.   Standard Monroe Doctrine justification, all right.   In your world view, when the 10 Commandments says, "Thou shalt not steal..."  that means all those other people shouldn't steal back from us when they get a chance to take back what we stole from them.  Interesting, if overly complex and twisted, interpretation of what would seem to be a pretty straightforward sentence. 


Net Neutrality - yeah, it's called reality.  I guess you justify it the same way you justify all the other stealing you just endorsed.  But you also appear to pick and choose not just in your Biblical interpretations, but in the actual text of the document that established this country.  Some high points of the first paragraph deal with what are supposed to be the the most important parts of the document.  Starting with "We the people..."   and  "promote the general welfare..." in particular.  Nowhere does it say, 'we the corporations'.   

Funny how you think Gates and Jobs "relied on previous investments, but they took them and advanced them"... key word, 'took them'.  As in stealing from copyrighted Xerox intellectual property - Jobs with Macintosh, Gates with Windows.  That's just one of the reasons why they have had so much trouble in Europe.  Europe believes in the rule of law about things like this more than we do and don't let them off as easy as we.

And every step of the way, those advancements to the internet were funded with money of various flavors - grants, contracts, etc - provided by the taxpayers.  And of course, the raping/pillaging of the American consumer by the big monopolies that run cable.   You must have a lot of stock in Cox, Comcast, AT&T, etc, to be able to twist yourself around into those kind of pretzel logic positions.


There is also a clause about IP, which has also been twisted into an unrecognizable sick, disgusting, ball of slime that allows Disney, et. al. to keep copyrights on what, by definition, was meant to be "securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."   Using  your non-logic, that would mean we should benefit from all those things for many more decades, too, so you just made my point.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I could only muster my way through about 10 minutes honestly. I understand this is likely your primary source of political edumacation, but let me tell ya, you could do much MUCH better. Read a paper. Challenge yourself. Half truths for chuckles is not exactly doing that for you.

Fake Fox News Sound Bite Attention Span Disorder, or FFNSBASD for short.

Listen to some NPR and PBS - there is help for that!   All you have to do is ask...!

[Hoss]

I could only muster my way through about 10 minutes honestly. I understand this is likely your primary source of political edumacation, but let me tell ya, you could do much MUCH better. Read a paper. Challenge yourself. Half truths for chuckles is not exactly doing that for you.

Uh, wut?

I use John Oliver as a source of info (because he/his team sources well...he's won the Peabody TWICE) and he's entertaining at doing it.  I read papers, I listen to NPR, I watch PBS.  Believe it or not, I don't watch MSNBC or CNN unless I want to be entertained.  I can't get through anything on Fox (aside from Shep) without feeling the need to retch.

But I understand you source a lot of your information from Conservative news outlets.  If you think I source mine from primarily liberal sources, you'd be wrong.  But that's ok.  I could give two squirts of piss what anyone thinks of me.  I'm far enough along in life that I'd just scream at you to get off my lawn.   

[erfalf]

So you think what we did for most of the last century was fine, but when people reacted against it, THEY are the bad ones!  Yep, Fake Fox News every step of the way.   If you actually knew anything beyond the past 3 sound bites, you would know that they did NOT have a revolution against their own government - they revolted against the puppet government we put in place in the early 50's.  That is the truly sad part here - that you can't even understand something as simple as real history.

So even though it "may have technically been theirs", you believe that for us to keep something that we took from someone else is not stealing.   Standard Monroe Doctrine justification, all right.   In your world view, when the 10 Commandments says, "Thou shalt not steal..."  that means all those other people shouldn't steal back from us when they get a chance to take back what we stole from them.  Interesting, if overly complex and twisted, interpretation of what would seem to be a pretty straightforward sentence.  


Net Neutrality - yeah, it's called reality.  I guess you justify it the same way you justify all the other stealing you just endorsed.  But you also appear to pick and choose not just in your Biblical interpretations, but in the actual text of the document that established this country.  Some high points of the first paragraph deal with what are supposed to be the the most important parts of the document.  Starting with "We the people..."   and  "promote the general welfare..." in particular.  Nowhere does it say, 'we the corporations'.  

Funny how you think Gates and Jobs "relied on previous investments, but they took them and advanced them"... key word, 'took them'.  As in stealing from copyrighted Xerox intellectual property - Jobs with Macintosh, Gates with Windows.  That's just one of the reasons why they have had so much trouble in Europe.  Europe believes in the rule of law about things like this more than we do and don't let them off as easy as we.

And every step of the way, those advancements to the internet were funded with money of various flavors - grants, contracts, etc - provided by the taxpayers.  And of course, the raping/pillaging of the American consumer by the big monopolies that run cable.   You must have a lot of stock in Cox, Comcast, AT&T, etc, to be able to twist yourself around into those kind of pretzel logic positions.


There is also a clause about IP, which has also been twisted into an unrecognizable sick, disgusting, ball of slime that allows Disney, et. al. to keep copyrights on what, by definition, was meant to be "securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."   Using  your non-logic, that would mean we should benefit from all those things for many more decades, too, so you just made my point.

Taking hostages is ok. Two wrongs make a right. Whatever. You are completely focusing on the wrong of one by ignoring the dozens of wrongs by another. Iran is no saint. And I do completely understand what was going on at the time. Foreign policy is not some black and white easy to make decisions arena. In the what have you done for me now industry, what exactly had Iran done to deserve being let off the hook. We use all kinds of methods to keep bad people from doing bad things to us and others. While obviously "stealing is bad", are you positive the money that was "stolen" was legitimately Iran's considering their sordid money laundering history. Iran has been a problem for decades and somehow the rest of their neighbors have figured it out but over here people like you are sympathetic to their "plight", while enjoying the freedom we have had from their hostilities for decades. Wonder how that came to pass. Purely a coincidence I am sure.

And regarding Net Neutrality, I'll just chalk that one up to you having a hissy fit that you were called on your smile.

And for real, if you would have discussions with people instead of straw men (Fox news watcher, Christian, etc), it would help a lot, and sure be appreciated by everyone on this board I dare say.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Uh, wut?

.  I could give two squirts of piss what anyone thinks of me.  I'm far enough along in life that I'd just scream at you to get off my lawn.   

Or you could use that two squirts to get people off the lawn...   just sayin'...

Wonder if that would work with Breadhead...?    Probably not, he might like it too much...