Promenade Mall

[Oil Capital]

Wow, Promenade Mall is in even worse shape than I realized.  I just did a deep dive on their website and their list of stores and mall map is so out of date and incomplete it's pathetic.  They aren't even seriously trying any more.

They appear to be down to about 14 stores plus a smattering of local shops.

Their website still lists a whole bunch of stores whose respective websites say they do not have locations at the Promenade, including JCPenney (which is still on their store list AND on the mall map). Oddly, while Dillard's (which is actually open) makes the store list, the mall does not bother to include it on their map.

[DTowner]

Wow, Promenade Mall is in even worse shape than I realized.  I just did a deep dive on their website and their list of stores and mall map is so out of date and incomplete it's pathetic.  They aren't even seriously trying any more.

They appear to be down to about 14 stores plus a smattering of local shops.

Their website still lists a whole bunch of stores whose respective websites say they do not have locations at the Promenade, including JCPenney (which is still on their store list AND on the mall map). Oddly, while Dillard's (which is actually open) makes the store list, the mall does not bother to include it on their map.

Take a walk through the mall - it is definitely a zombie mall.  And, I think Dillard's owns its building.

[SXSW]

What's interesting about Promenade is that unlike Eastland Mall it's in a good location.  Centrally located within Tulsa close to I-44 and at the intersection of two main thoroughfares.  Some of the highest income neighborhoods in the city to the west and northwest.  With some vision it could be converted to mixed-use apartments and offices.  I would think OU would have some interest in being involved as well.

[Oil Capital]

The Promenade death march appears to be continuing.  Now down to about 10 stores, including Dillard's.

Oddly, they've updated the store list on their website but the mall map still shows JCPenney (which is not open), but still does not show Dillard's (which is still open).

[SXSW]

Another mall, another redevelopment plan this one in Phoenix.  Metrocenter Mall used to be one of the premier malls in north Phoenix and has been closed for the past few years.  Hines and the City of Phoenix have partnered to bulldoze the mall and rebuild it as a walkable mixed-use development with some retail but mostly housing.  https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/

This is what needs to happen with Promenade.  A big mixed-use development at 41st & Yale would improve that whole section of the city.  Have the City of Tulsa partner with a developer and get OU-Tulsa involved as a joint stakeholder.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Another mall, another redevelopment plan this one in Phoenix.  Metrocenter Mall used to be one of the premier malls in north Phoenix and has been closed for the past few years.  Hines and the City of Phoenix have partnered to bulldoze the mall and rebuild it as a walkable mixed-use development with some retail but mostly housing.  https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/

This is what needs to happen with Promenade.  A big mixed-use development at 41st & Yale would improve that whole section of the city.  Have the City of Tulsa partner with a developer and get OU-Tulsa involved as a joint stakeholder.

The redevelopment of Metrocenter is the second project like this going on in the valley. The other is the Paradise Valley Mall Redevelopment Project. (yes it's noted in the link provided about Metrocenter)

https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/

Metrocenter has issues that were not brought up in the article. The area south and southwest of Metro is a really rough area with a number of shootings, drug activity, assault, and property crimes.

Metrocenter is the oval shaped area near the top of the map bordered by 27th Ave on the east 35th Ave to the west, Peoria on the north and Dunlap on the south.

https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/

[SXSW]

The redevelopment of Metrocenter is the second project like this going on in the valley. The other is the Paradise Valley Mall Redevelopment Project. (yes it's noted in the link provided about Metrocenter)

https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/

Metrocenter has issues that were not brought up in the article. The area south and southwest of Metro is a really rough area with a number of shootings, drug activity, assault, and property crimes.

Metrocenter is the oval shaped area near the top of the map bordered by 27th Ave on the east 35th Ave to the west, Peoria on the north and Dunlap on the south.

https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/

Not super familiar with Phoenix, how does its location compare to Promenade?  Looks to be about a similar distance from downtown Phoenix as Promenade is from downtown Tulsa.  Promenade has some of the wealthiest zip codes in the city to its west and northwest, solid upper middle class neighborhoods to its north, southwest and east with lower income apartments to the south (south of I-44).  Promenade is much different than Eastland, for example, in that it is in a good centrally located neighborhood so it would make economic sense to redevelop it.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Not super familiar with Phoenix, how does its location compare to Promenade?  Looks to be about a similar distance from downtown Phoenix as Promenade is from downtown Tulsa.  Promenade has some of the wealthiest zip codes in the city to its west and northwest, solid upper middle class neighborhoods to its north, southwest and east with lower income apartments to the south (south of I-44).  Promenade is much different than Eastland, for example, in that it is in a good centrally located neighborhood so it would make economic sense to redevelop it.

The area south and west of Metro is kind of like the way the Kendall/Whittier, Utica-244, W 23rd/SW Blvd Arkansas River from the 80's to mid 90's era. It's been a mixed area of races since the 70's but has always struggled with gang issues since the late 70's. Now if you go north and west you get into an area similar to the area around Promenade 41st and Yale area. The distance to downtown is about the same as you noted.

The whole area as a development time line are similar in age dating back to the early 70's. The area is also a lot like west Tulsa in it's history since it was primarily an industrial area since just to the west of there is US 60/Grand Avenue and a major rail line. There was a Goodyear plant, and a lot of other manufacturing in the area and it's also the location of the fuel and oil depot distribution center for the gas and oil we get from LA and El Paso.

The reason the area north is more like 41st and Yale is there were locations for Honeywell, Allied Signal, and Motorola. The Promenade area to me benefitted from back when Amaco, Sinclair, Telex, Seismograph and to an extent Nelson Electric had facilities in that area.

The Metrocenter area is just a portion of issues in that area. That area is actually part of three cities, Phoenix/Glendale/Maryvale and it's not all bad, but as I noted earlier it's been a long time issue.

The growth of the valley has been an interesting study for me, because it's not so much that Phoenix grew outwards but that the surrounding cities grew towards Phoenix as well as growing around each other.

I do hope that the Metrocenter development helps improve the area and spur some healthy redevelopment in the surrounding area but it wont be easy.

[realst8]

There is tenant improvement work taking place in the JC Penny box. New roof being installed and floors inside the premises are being diamond ground. It would appear that the Penny's box will have a new tenant soon. I am curious to see what type of user is going in.

[DTowner]

I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

[tulsabug]

I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

I used to manage a store at Eastland Mall back when that was a thing. Dealing with mall management made me realize that all the problems with malls was due to them. For the most part they were content to just open the doors and hope people showed up and then whined when there were no crowds. Our store, in addition to rent, had to pay a monthly advertising fee to the mall so they could run commercials and so on but they never did. I asked why not and they said they didn't want to offend Woodland Hills Mall. I shiat you not. Malls aren't dying because people don't want to shop in person or because malls are "uncool" or whatever, they're dying because they're all run by idiots - clearly Promenade has had that same problem for a long time.

[SXSW]

I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

[swake]

Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

Dillards closed at Utica decades ago.

[DTowner]

Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

I would love for Dillard's to build a store on the old Miss Jackson's site.  However, realistically, Dillard's once had five stores in Tulsa, is now down to 2 and 1 of those does not look like it will be around much longer.  Most large department stores are struggling and generally shrinking their footprint and putting more eggs in the on-line market.  So, while I would love a return of Dillard's to Utica Square, I doubt that ever happens.

[DTowner]

I used to manage a store at Eastland Mall back when that was a thing. Dealing with mall management made me realize that all the problems with malls was due to them. For the most part they were content to just open the doors and hope people showed up and then whined when there were no crowds. Our store, in addition to rent, had to pay a monthly advertising fee to the mall so they could run commercials and so on but they never did. I asked why not and they said they didn't want to offend Woodland Hills Mall. I shiat you not. Malls aren't dying because people don't want to shop in person or because malls are "uncool" or whatever, they're dying because they're all run by idiots - clearly Promenade has had that same problem for a long time.

Mall leases are notoriously one-sided.  For example, at Promenade the nail salons had to open at 5 am on Black Friday when the other stores opened because the lease required them to be open when the mall was open even though no one was going to get their nails done while hitting the store buster sales.

Dying malls have many causes, with bad management being only one.  However, the succession of owners of Promenade the past couple of decades have done little to fight the headwinds this mall faced and some seem to have actively contributed to its demise.  Once a mall starts the downward spiral, it is rare to recover.  Refusing to pay for electricity to turn on the lights in the parking lots seems like a pretty good indication the current owner is not making any effort.