Andolini's and others

[rebound]

I think Zomato offers the best critical reviews for restaurants and seem to focus more on the food. Far more votes than the other review sites also.

I had never used Zomato, so checked it out, with (to me) mixed results.   In terms of specific reviews of specific restaurants, it seems solid.  My issue with it is when I might try to use it as a search engine.  The results of a few searches are off.  For example,   I searched (since we were on this topic) for  Pizza in Tulsa.  Initial search wasn't bad, but is by popularity. So, sort by rating. Again, not bad, but shows me too many locations, some all the way down in BA.  So, use the map to zoom in, and re-search.   At that point,  several key places (Pie Hole, for example) just disappear.  Not sure what is going on, but if I was using this in an area I was not familiar with, I would (I think) not get a full list.

I tried the same thing with "Mexican", and again found the lists from Yelp and Google much more to what I would have expected.

But the biggest issue I had with Zomato is when I thought about searching for "cocktail bar".  (I met a guy on a plane into Tulsa last Friday that asked about the best cocktail bars in town, and so I thought this would be a good test.)  I also tried "cocktail lounge", just to be inclusive.  On Yelp and Google, I get basically the list I would have expected, with Hodges Bend,  MixCo, Valkyrie, etc.   On Zomato, it restricts you to a category of "serves cocktails", and then when I search by rating the first entry I get is Fish Daddy's, and the second one is Cheddars.  (Which was confusing, to say the least.)

So I then looked up Hodges Bend directly, and it is listed as a Wine Bar, which it really isn't.  I then search "Wine Bars", and HB came up fifth, but other places that I know are better "wine bars" weren't even on the list. 

So, I'm not sure Zomato is my favorite right now, but I have it on my phone now and keep working with it.

But one thing I noticed when playing around with all three sites just now is that I wish there was a way to be more specific about what you are looking for.  Since it was Pizza that got me going, for example, I'd like to know whether a place is primarily a pizza place, or is an Italian restaurant that also serves pizza.  For the places I know, I know, but it would be difficult to tell sometimes.   It would really be nice if I could put in several keywords such as "non-smoking, dive bar, craft beer, burgers", or similar, and have the system give me a list.  (I just tried that string on all three, and only Yelp gave me anything. It gave me White Flag, which might have been a good selection if the place was actually open...)

Anyway,  rant about food rating sites over.  Have work to do.

[Conan71]

Is there any such thing as a "really good Chinese buffet"?   Or for that matter, "really good (insert type of food here) buffet"?  Buffets and cafeterias can product "OK" food, but not really good.  JMHO.

Chinese buffets are basically good for making turds and little else.

That said, one of my guilty pleasures before I left Tulsa and when I slip back into town is the garlic fried chicken on the buffet at Golden Palace at I-44 & Peoria.  Their buffet is tiny compared to most but it's all made in house rather than by opening a can.  Nice family too.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I did not say anything about Tucci's. Simply that Andolini's is "arguably the best in Tulsa". Many people feel that way based on it being the highest rated pizza place in the Tulsa area.

Yes, Bill's might be better, but I didn't even bring up Bill's. and I said "one of the best burger joints". Again, based on many others' reviews which rank it one of the best in Tulsa.


I said "one of the best in the state" and, again, that is based on many others' reviews which put it near the top in the state. I've been to almost all of the top-rated BBQ joints in Oklahoma and have never waited in lines like Burn Co and never had BBQ quite like that.

You must not read very well, huh? Your counter argument was a red herring, misinterpreting what I said. My point was there is no way you make better food than all of those highly rated places. Maybe in your own very-unique opinion, but if you really believe that, that would be because you have the most unique taste buds around and don't enjoy what any normal person does so your opinion wouldn't really be relevant anyways.

Yeah, and I have been saying they are all ok, but there are better.  I guess we are both saying exactly the same thing, so why are you so argumentative with me??

As for better at home - yeah, some of those I definitely do better at home.  As dozens of family members and a few friends have testified.  I have mentioned the ones I don't.


Side note - have you been to Albert G's??   Or Smokies??

[heironymouspasparagus]

So, I was curious about this.  Looked up Pizza Restaurants in both Google and Yelp.   Here's Google's ratings:

[ (xxx) is the number of reviews ]

Andolini's Food Truck   5.0    (1)
East Village Bohemian Pizzeria   4.7     (137)
Talliano's Pizzeria & Subs   4.7     (28)
Blaze Pizza   4.6     (103)
Andolini's Pizzeria   4.6     (505)
Umberto's   4.6     (99)
Hideaway Pizza   4.5     (247)
Hideaway Pizza   4.5     (71)
Top That! Pizza   4.5     (38)
Pie Hole Pizzeria   4.4     (107)
Andolini's Sliced   4.4     (208)
NYC Pizza   4.4     (167)
hey mambo   4.3     (148)
Elgin Park   4.3     (201)
Marios NY Style Pizzeria   4.2     (74)
Papa Murphy's Take 'N' Bake Pizza   4.2     (25)
Naples Flatbread Kitchen & Bar on Denver Avenue   4.2     (93)
Tucci's   4.1     (55)
Cicis   4.0     (231)

I tried to do the same for Yelp, but some of the restaurants (Tucci's, for example) don't come up when you search "Pizza".  But, Andolini's is near the top there, also.

For the record, put me down as an East Village guy.  Love that place.

Ouch!!   Top That and CiCi's shows the "El Charro, Claremore" effect in full operation there!!   And I am gonna also put Papa Murphy's there - have only had it once, but that once was a CiCi's type event, so may need to revisit.

3 out of a dozen of the top places are arguably hog slop*.  And get top ratings - over 4.0!!!  Obviously not based on flavors, taste, texture, or dining experience.


*I stand ready to take Papa Murphy's off this if future events show other results.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think Zomato offers the best critical reviews for restaurants and seem to focus more on the food. Far more votes than the other review sites also.

Here is a list of top-rated restaurants in Tulsa:
https://www.zomato.com/tulsa-ok/best-restaurants
Here is the top-5 from that list:
1. Kilkennies (Cherry St) 4.9 (2436 votes!)
2. Fat Guy's Burger Bar (downtown) 4.8 (1313 votes)
3. Old School Bagel Cafe (Brookside) 4.7 (819 votes) (Sorry, heronymous makes far better bagels!)
4. Andolini's Pizzeria (Cherry St) 4.6 (1152 votes)
5. Burn Co BBQ (Boston Ave) 4.6 (864 votes)

Umbertos is also in the top-10. The other places I listed are in the top-30 or so.

If you go just a little further down that list on Zomato, there is at least one interesting "El Charro, Claremore" entries. 

Egg it On Cafe in BA.   Number 10 on that list.  They get 4 out of 5 "Hog slops" in the real world.  And they, too are busy beyond anything I would have thought possible.  Or the fact they are still in business...

And they show Burn Co as number 5 with 864 votes!!  Basically what that shows is that 864 people that have eaten at Albert G's or Smokies didn't vote on Zomato.

Fat Guys gets number 2 with 1313 votes... again, 1313 people who eat at Bill's didn't vote here.

These can be general indicators that a place at least won't make you sick...I try to look at reviews all the time, since it generally means people who post are passionate enough to expend that energy and effort to say something.  But this shows how heavily biased and distorted these things can be, too.  If I were from out of town, saw that list and acted only on it, I would then miss some of the best in class that exists here.  Which may not be horrible thing, but would be nice to get a better measurement.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Aw, c'mon...you gotta have some insights/inputs...!!

[TeeDub]

Remember...   Ratings apps are based on the few people that use them.  

TripAdvisor's #6 on best places to eat in Sapulpa is KFC.      (I will not comment on what that says about Sapulpa.)  

Personal experience also has taught me that you seldom find good hole-in-the-wall type places on them due to lack of reviews.

[rebound]

If you go just a little further down that list on Zomato, there is at least one interesting "El Charro, Claremore" entries. 

Egg it On Cafe in BA.   Number 10 on that list.  They get 4 out of 5 "Hog slops" in the real world.  And they, too are busy beyond anything I would have thought possible.  Or the fact they are still in business...

And they show Burn Co as number 5 with 864 votes!!  Basically what that shows is that 864 people that have eaten at Albert G's or Smokies didn't vote on Zomato.

Fat Guys gets number 2 with 1313 votes... again, 1313 people who eat at Bill's didn't vote here.

These can be general indicators that a place at least won't make you sick...I try to look at reviews all the time, since it generally means people who post are passionate enough to expend that energy and effort to say something.  But this shows how heavily biased and distorted these things can be, too.  If I were from out of town, saw that list and acted only on it, I would then miss some of the best in class that exists here.  Which may not be horrible thing, but would be nice to get a better measurement.

I really do not understand why I am so drawn to this discussion...

I think it's worth clarifying that the "votes" in this case are not actual votes for the eatery.  Rather, they are better labeled as "reviews", in that (for example) 1313 people have submitted a review for Fat Guys and provided a rating.  a "vote" for Fat Guys is not directly related to a vote for Bill's, other than to note that, in this case, more people have been to Fat Guys and given a review.

Which goes to the point TeeDub makes.  These sites implicitly favor popular sites, and it is hard to find the good hole-in-the-wall places on them because they don't get the same number of reviews.

Also agree with the "El Charro" effect as well.  Earlier in the pizza evaluation, I noticed Andolini's Owasso is rated the same as Andolini's 15th st, and ahead of some other top-rated Tulsa places.  Now again, I have not been to Andolini's 15th st, but I have been to the Owasso location quite a number of times, and it simply is not in the same league as a number of the Tulsa places on the list.  But for Owasso it's pretty good (I did go there regularly), and so the higher rating.   It's all about expectation, and it's very difficult to compare reviews from different areas and specialities.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I really do not understand why I am so drawn to this discussion...

I think it's worth clarifying that the "votes" in this case are not actual votes for the eatery.  Rather, they are better labeled as "reviews", in that (for example) 1313 people have submitted a review for Fat Guys and provided a rating.  a "vote" for Fat Guys is not directly related to a vote for Bill's, other than to note that, in this case, more people have been to Fat Guys and given a review.

Which goes to the point TeeDub makes.  These sites implicitly favor popular sites, and it is hard to find the good hole-in-the-wall places on them because they don't get the same number of reviews.

Also agree with the "El Charro" effect as well.  Earlier in the pizza evaluation, I noticed Andolini's Owasso is rated the same as Andolini's 15th st, and ahead of some other top-rated Tulsa places.  Now again, I have not been to Andolini's 15th st, but I have been to the Owasso location quite a number of times, and it simply is not in the same league as a number of the Tulsa places on the list.  But for Owasso it's pretty good (I did go there regularly), and so the higher rating.   It's all about expectation, and it's very difficult to compare reviews from different areas and specialities.

What's not to be drawn by...  It's Food !  Drama, conflict, and all manner of excitement...

Yeah...reviews...it's just easier to type votes.   I was wondering if Bill's got any reviews, since it didn't show up on those listed so far, so went looking.  Small numbers, but obviously discriminating diners who know good food when they eat it.  Clearly not just a mass of 'cattle' following the herd.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/bills-jumbo-burgers-tulsa
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g51697-d4400562-Reviews-Bill_s_Jumbo_Hamburgers-Tulsa_Oklahoma.html
https://www.yellowpages.com/tulsa-ok/mip/bills-jumbo-burgers-554943


Even Lot-A-Burger has a small but dedicated following...

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g51697-d4255948-Reviews-Lot_A_Burger-Tulsa_Oklahoma.html

And then there are some whose only taste is in their mouth, and it is bad...

https://www.yelp.com/biz/lot-a-burger-tulsa-11


My Andolini's experience was also Owasso, so in fairness, I guess I should make the pilgrimage to 15th street.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And on another little side note - I got to spend some time in the lands where Maple syrup is made.  In addition to syrup, they have Maple sugar made from that syrup!   Yeah...decadent and deadly.

The really big thing above and beyond good stuff for my pancakes, waffles, and bacon - Maple cotton candy!!   O M G !!  Just like it sounds like it would be!!  I brought back 4 containers and TSA didn't even steal any of them!!  Am munching on it now at my desk!!  Breakfast of Champions!!

[Conan71]

And on another little side note - I got to spend some time in the lands where Maple syrup is made.  In addition to syrup, they have Maple sugar made from that syrup!   Yeah...decadent and deadly.

The really big thing above and beyond good stuff for my pancakes, waffles, and bacon - Maple cotton candy!!   O M G !!  Just like it sounds like it would be!!  I brought back 4 containers and TSA didn't even steal any of them!!  Am munching on it now at my desk!!  Breakfast of Champions!!

There is only one maple syrup from real maple trees and damn it is good.  That's all we serve our guests.  It's a bit more expensive, but we try to make everything memorable.

The HFCS crap masquerading as syrup is, well, crap.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Yeah, and I have been saying they are all ok, but there are better.  I guess we are both saying exactly the same thing, so why are you so argumentative with me??

As for better at home - yeah, some of those I definitely do better at home.  As dozens of family members and a few friends have testified.  I have mentioned the ones I don't.


Side note - have you been to Albert G's??   Or Smokies??

Yes, I go to Albert G's far more than I go to Burn Co because I mostly go for dinner. I like Albert G's a lot. I prefer Burn Co but I don't typically want to wait in line or drive to the Jenks location.

I have Smokies on my list of must-try places but haven't been yet.

[DowntownDan]

Had Andolini's last night (15th Street) and still the best in town, and holds its own with best pizza anywhere.  I'm not completely smitten with Burnco like many others, but it's based on style.  I'm from Texas and prefer the wood smoked Texas style to any other style.  Burnco I think uses only lump charcoal on Hasty Bake ovens.  Tasty as heck, but I prefer Texas style.  Albert Gs is closer to that style and is my local preference.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I really do not understand why I am so drawn to this discussion...

I think it's worth clarifying that the "votes" in this case are not actual votes for the eatery.  Rather, they are better labeled as "reviews", in that (for example) 1313 people have submitted a review for Fat Guys and provided a rating.  a "vote" for Fat Guys is not directly related to a vote for Bill's, other than to note that, in this case, more people have been to Fat Guys and given a review.

Which goes to the point TeeDub makes.  These sites implicitly favor popular sites, and it is hard to find the good hole-in-the-wall places on them because they don't get the same number of reviews.

Also agree with the "El Charro" effect as well.  Earlier in the pizza evaluation, I noticed Andolini's Owasso is rated the same as Andolini's 15th st, and ahead of some other top-rated Tulsa places.  Now again, I have not been to Andolini's 15th st, but I have been to the Owasso location quite a number of times, and it simply is not in the same league as a number of the Tulsa places on the list.  But for Owasso it's pretty good (I did go there regularly), and so the higher rating.   It's all about expectation, and it's very difficult to compare reviews from different areas and specialities.

Eventually, there's a statistically-significant number of votes that assures the rating won't change whether there's a few hundred or several thousand. Bill's has a 4.1 rating with 248 reviews on Zomato. Most likely, even if it gets 1313 votes, the score will remain around 4.1 (so long as Bill's keeps the same consistency they've had for so many years). In the same way, Fat Guys' score of 4.8 is unlikely to change much whether they had only 300 reviews or 3000 reviews and they would still rank at #2 in the state. At this point, they achieve an incredibly high level of customer satisfaction for almost every reviewer.

You can argue about the demographics, but Zomato is far more legitimate than Yelp where restaurants can pay to alter which reviews are removed. Zomato does a much better job with hole-in-the-wall places than tripadvisor. Obviously, any of those sites tend to prefer nicer more updated places with better atmospheres than a place like Bill's so Bill's will always suffer for that. Nic's in OKC is much nicer inside than Bills and I would say the customer service is more pleasant so I can understand the discrepancy. Eating outside at Bill's is a pretty bad experience also (Either lots of flies or cold; plus rough scenery). So the burgers themselves keep it elevated over 4 even though the rest of it is like a 2 star experience.

https://www.zomato.com/tulsa-ok/bills-jumbo-burgers-tulsa/reviews

[heironymouspasparagus]

There is only one maple syrup from real maple trees and damn it is good.  That's all we serve our guests.  It's a bit more expensive, but we try to make everything memorable.

The HFCS crap masquerading as syrup is, well, crap.

Yes it is crap!!   I use real maple syrup at home...well, except when kids come over...not gonna waste the good stuff on them...!   They also don't get to drink my good whisky!

The real syrup is also made into sugar - granulated Maple syrup by some sugaring process.  And then...Magic!!   They do mix it with regular cane sugar, but the cotton candy is astounding!!  I love regular cotton candy, but now that I can get the maple, plus being able to get cotton candy grapes...well, life is complete!  Gonna have to start a smuggling operation from New Hampshire to Tulsa.