All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa

[heironymouspasparagus]

Did the concept of neighborhood church ever apply in the Tulsa area?

36th and Harvard.  Christ United Methodist was a neighborhood church.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

It's still on

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/all-souls-unitarian-church-reaffirms-decision-to-move-downtown/article_f6fe0e91-15b4-5311-ba31-87c3bd4c798b.html

That's great and all, but aren't they almost exactly where they were 6 years ago with the intent to move downtown, but no finances or plan? I guess they have a stated goal "by 2021".

And as others have mentioned, it isn't necessarily a positive, more churches downtown, as they increase the need for parking lots only used once per week and bring in few people outside of Sunday (in this case, it sounds like they have a good plan worked out). I'm not sure it's overall positive for Tulsa considering they're moving from a very vibrant midtown area to downtown, leaving their current place empty (will it  be bulldozed and turned into a mansion or sold to a new church?). If this brings any business to downtown, it will be mostly taking that away from Brookside, not creating new revenue for the urban areas of Tulsa. If the Brookside location attracts a big church from South Tulsa or somewhere else, then the move could be a net gain for urban development.

Sure it is better than the empty lots over there and will be more construction money spent in the IDL, but it will create another divide between any developments being planned over there (such as old Nordam site) and the rest of the East Village area so will permanently mar that part of downtown. The main positive I see is that churches often look nice and are typically long time tenants, but most every church downtown is surrounded by parking lots and are major inhibitors to development (no bars/concert halls/etc nearby).

[cannon_fodder]

All Souls has event programming basically constantly.  Prayer groups, study, kids events, art projects, concerts, etc.  Just today they have:

8:30 AM to 10:30 AM   Parish Notes Assembly   Alliance Room
2:00 PM to 4:00 PM   Tulsa Inclusive Homeschool group - T3   Sponge Room
5:30 PM to 8:30 PM   Shambala Meditation (Tuesdays)   President's Room - 4
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle Childcare   
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Majestic (3rd Tuesday)   Majestic Theater - 122
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - RM 120 (3rd Tuesday)   120 Classroom
7:00 PM to 9:00 PM   New Dimensions Chorale   Children's Choir Room - 130
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Thoreau Lounge (3rd Tuesday)   Thoreau Lounge - 119
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   All Souls' Men's Group - Redefining Masculinity   128 Classroom
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Sienna Project Presentation to All Souls Intl.   Emerson Hall
7:30 PM to 9:00 PM   Counterpoint   Chapel
http://allsoulschurch.org/events

Lots of  small groups heading downtown.  Lots of chances for them to grab a coffee, or a drink, or dinner before or after.  At least based on their public calendars, you don't see that kind of activity at  1st Presbyterian Church on Boston,, The Cathedral, or  Trinity at 5th and Cinci, or most other downtown churches.  So as far as adding life to an area is concerned, this could be different.

Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning. 

[swake]

All Souls has event programming basically constantly.  Prayer groups, study, kids events, art projects, concerts, etc.  Just today they have:

8:30 AM to 10:30 AM   Parish Notes Assembly   Alliance Room
2:00 PM to 4:00 PM   Tulsa Inclusive Homeschool group - T3   Sponge Room
5:30 PM to 8:30 PM   Shambala Meditation (Tuesdays)   President's Room - 4
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle Childcare   
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Majestic (3rd Tuesday)   Majestic Theater - 122
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - RM 120 (3rd Tuesday)   120 Classroom
7:00 PM to 9:00 PM   New Dimensions Chorale   Children's Choir Room - 130
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Thoreau Lounge (3rd Tuesday)   Thoreau Lounge - 119
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   All Souls' Men's Group - Redefining Masculinity   128 Classroom
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Sienna Project Presentation to All Souls Intl.   Emerson Hall
7:30 PM to 9:00 PM   Counterpoint   Chapel
http://allsoulschurch.org/events

Lots of  small groups heading downtown.  Lots of chances for them to grab a coffee, or a drink, or dinner before or after.  At least based on their public calendars, you don't see that kind of activity at  1st Presbyterian Church on Boston,, The Cathedral, or  Trinity at 5th and Cinci, or most other downtown churches.  So as far as adding life to an area is concerned, this could be different.

Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning. 

There's also Channing Day School.

The church property also includes many of the houses that surround the church.

[SXSW]

It would be a shame to see the church torn down but I could see it happening for infill housing on that lot.  All of those areas around the Gathering Place will only continue to go up in value.  I wish I already owned real estate in Maple Ridge and West Brookside.

[rebound]

It would be a shame to see the church torn down but I could see it happening for infill housing on that lot.  All of those areas around the Gathering Place will only continue to go up in value.  I wish I already owned real estate in Maple Ridge and West Brookside.

I live a couple of blocks from the gathering place.  I moved in a little over two years ago, and already the prices for the fixer-uppers were starting to climb hard.   Right now, anything under about $400K is gone in a matter of days, and the true rebuilds don't even go on the market.  There is a house right next door to me that is not even officially on the market, but they do have a "coming soon" sign out, and the amount of traffic checking it out is amazing.  I'm North of 31st, but the neighborhoods from 31st-41st between Peoria and Riverside have probably seen the highest rise in home value.   I ride/run down that way, and the last couple of years have been a transformation.  Really impressive what is going on.     

[swake]

I live a couple of blocks from the gathering place.  I moved in a little over two years ago, and already the prices for the fixer-uppers were starting to climb hard.   Right now, anything under about $400K is gone in a matter of days, and the true rebuilds don't even go on the market.  There is a house right next door to me that is not even officially on the market, but they do have a "coming soon" sign out, and the amount of traffic checking it out is amazing.  I'm North of 31st, but the neighborhoods from 31st-41st between Peoria and Riverside have probably seen the highest rise in home value.   I ride/run down that way, and the last couple of years have been a transformation.  Really impressive what is going on.     

\

But the TW comments say it's going to be filled with homeless people...

[rebound]

But the TW comments say it's going to be filled with homeless people...

The Gathering Place itself?  Actually, that is a valid concern.   It's small enough that I don't think there is a real worry about them "setting up camps" and such, but I'm sure there will be some issues.  As has been previously discussed on here, the area of River Parks North from the Blue Rose is a problem area.  Just yesterday my wife was out for a lunch bike ride, and was commenting that it must be the warmer weather or something, but it was packed up there with homeless yesterday.

If the city wants this to work, they are going to have to do what NYC does in Central Park, and what Philly does in their  museum and parks areas, and move them out.  (And before anybody jumps on me here, I do in fact have compassion for the homeless and am all about helping them out.  Let's put money into it and do it right. But allowing them to live in our public spaces in not helping them, or us.)

[swake]

The Gathering Place itself?  Actually, that is a valid concern.   It's small enough that I don't think there is a real worry about them "setting up camps" and such, but I'm sure there will be some issues.  As has been previously discussed on here, the area of River Parks North from the Blue Rose is a problem area.  Just yesterday my wife was out for a lunch bike ride, and was commenting that it must be the warmer weather or something, but it was packed up there with homeless yesterday.

If the city wants this to work, they are going to have to do what NYC does in Central Park, and what Philly does in their  museum and parks areas, and move them out.  (And before anybody jumps on me here, I do in fact have compassion for the homeless and am all about helping them out.  Let's put money into it and do it right. But allowing them to live in our public spaces in not helping them, or us.)

I agree. Personally, I'm for housing the chronically homeless in judgement free housing near services. If they accept help and get better and go on their own great. Even if they never get "better", they are safer off the streets and it's cheaper to keep them off the streets in the long run with less medical emergencies and less law enforcement problems.

It saves money and is more humane, shocking I know.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I agree. Personally, I'm for housing the chronically homeless in judgement free housing near services. If they accept help and get better and go on their own great. Even if they never get "better", they are safer off the streets and it's cheaper to keep them off the streets in the long run with less medical emergencies and less law enforcement problems.

It saves money and is more humane, shocking I know.

Better Box Project in Tulsa (Associated with Denver House) is working on this:
https://mhat.secure.force.com/betterboxproject2014?id=a20A000000BrR84

I really hope judgement free housing takes off. Tulsans donate enough to house all of the chronically homeless. Most of the time, after they have a home, they end up getting a job AND getting clean. Imagine what that could do to our city? We have 700 which is relatively low, but that's potentially 500+ contributing and being a part of society (along with reducing crime/medical needs plus paying bills and boosting the economy).

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning. 

That is good they have stuff throughout the week (as do many churches), but I wonder how many people it brings in vs how large it will be. I was generalizing as most churches around downtown look pretty empty except on Sundays and some Wednesday nights.

I don't agree about the comparison with office buildings/bars/apartments. Churches are massive footprints and often kill the walkability around them. That alone ends the fair comparison. Apartments are usually 2nd floor or above; Smartly-developed ones have retail on ground level and even if they don't, they still increase density and are critical part of an urban community 7 days a week. Office Buildings are similar (their employees eat at the local food places and add density most every day). Bars are essential to bringing in people and function as community hangouts day to day and are part of what make an area "walkable". Churches would be great for urban development if they could do ground-floor retail and have housing and have large numbers of people there day to day. There are some churches that do that and maybe All Souls is as good as it gets.

You are right it is much better than a parking lot so we should rejoice in 5 years when they might break ground
I hope it ends up a net-benefit to Tulsa.

[RecycleMichael]

I am not the best judge, but every event I have been to at All Souls is packed. I have never seen less than forty cars in the parking lot during the day and twice that many for the after work stuff.

[Conan71]

I am not the best judge, but every event I have been to at All Souls is packed. I have never seen less than forty cars in the parking lot during the day and twice that many for the after work stuff.

I've been to several weekday evening programs at All Souls over the past few years ranging from musical entertainment they were producing to an event on a Crow Creek clean up.  Like Michael, I observed they were well attended. I always ended up having a drink and dinner on Brookside afterwards and I'm pretty certain I was not alone in that.  It's a draw.  All Souls is also a bit different from your average church in the Tulsa area.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I've been to several weekday evening programs at All Souls over the past few years ranging from musical entertainment they were producing to an event on a Crow Creek clean up.  Like Michael, I observed they were well attended. I always ended up having a drink and dinner on Brookside afterwards and I'm pretty certain I was not alone in that.  It's a draw.  All Souls is also a bit different from your average church in the Tulsa area.

Good to hear! Sounds like it should be a good addition to downtown then.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I really hope judgement free housing takes off. Tulsans donate enough to house all of the chronically homeless. Most of the time, after they have a home, they end up getting a job AND getting clean. Imagine what that could do to our city? We have 700 which is relatively low, but that's potentially 500+ contributing and being a part of society (along with reducing crime/medical needs plus paying bills and boosting the economy).

As for contributing, then you lose the economic activity based on all the criminal/medical needs.  Fewer crimes mean reduced court system activity.  Reduced police enforcement needs.  Reduced fire department requirements to fight fires in abandoned buildings.  Less insurance company business activity.  Less replacement purchasing activity.  Fewer alarm/protection economic activities.  And probably dozens of other impacts I haven't thought of just off the top of my head.  If you put these people in stable housing and get them making a minimum wage type job, all that goes away and the net economic activity would likely be reduced enough to be noticed on every "screen".  This could put thousands of people out of work and take millions out of the economy...that's why we still have the "war on drugs" as economic stimulus plan...