Does erasing history cure racism?

[patric]

The view from across the big pond:



General Robert E. Lee, the Confederate general whose statue sparked confrontation in Charlottesville, wrote to The New York Times before the Civil War to say that he planned to release slaves he had inherited, in accordance with a will.

The letter, republished in the paper on Friday, is seen as further evidence of Lee's nuanced feelings about slavery.

Although he fought to create a separate, slave-owning south, he was said to have personally mixed feelings about slavery.

"He was not a pro-slavery ideologue," said Eric Foner, a Civil War historian, author and professor of history at Columbia University.

"But I think equally important is that, unlike some white southerners, he never spoke out against slavery."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/robert-e-lee-wrote-new-york-times-say-planned-free-inherited




Earlier this week, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other politicians pressed the U.S. Army to rename two streets named for Confederate generals Gens. Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson on an Army base in Brooklyn. The Army has so far resisted, saying the streets were named for the generals "in the spirit of reconciliation" and to recognise them as individuals, not representatives of "any particular cause or ideology."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/new-york-subway-tiles-look-like-confederate-flags-altered

[heironymouspasparagus]

The view from across the big pond:



General Robert E. Lee, the Confederate general whose statue sparked confrontation in Charlottesville, wrote to The New York Times before the Civil War to say that he planned to release slaves he had inherited, in accordance with a will.

The letter, republished in the paper on Friday, is seen as further evidence of Lee's nuanced feelings about slavery.

Although he fought to create a separate, slave-owning south, he was said to have personally mixed feelings about slavery.

"He was not a pro-slavery ideologue," said Eric Foner, a Civil War historian, author and professor of history at Columbia University.

"But I think equally important is that, unlike some white southerners, he never spoke out against slavery."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/robert-e-lee-wrote-new-york-times-say-planned-free-inherited




Earlier this week, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other politicians pressed the U.S. Army to rename two streets named for Confederate generals Gens. Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson on an Army base in Brooklyn. The Army has so far resisted, saying the streets were named for the generals "in the spirit of reconciliation" and to recognise them as individuals, not representatives of "any particular cause or ideology."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/new-york-subway-tiles-look-like-confederate-flags-altered

At some point, there must be reconciliation and Christian forgiveness...or any other kind of forgiveness.  Doesn't mean to forget.

The difference here, with the people involved manifests as no remorse.  No regret.  And in point of fact, especially with Trump, doubling down to create more of the vile, pernicious, poisonous bile he has become so famous for.

[patric]

At some point, there must be reconciliation and Christian forgiveness...or any other kind of forgiveness.  Doesn't mean to forget.

The meaning of a memorial is never set in stone. The people who commission it might have one message in mind, but those who view the monument in generations that follow may draw entirely different lessons. One generation's hero becomes another generation's symbol of inhumanity — one reason Americans eventually turned away from statues of great men on horses, instead choosing stones decorated with lists of those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-those-confederate-soldier-statues-look-a-lot-like-their-union-counterparts/2017/08/18/cefcc1bc-8394-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html?utm_term=.ee20fdd515eb

[heironymouspasparagus]

The meaning of a memorial is never set in stone. The people who commission it might have one message in mind, but those who view the monument in generations that follow may draw entirely different lessons. One generation's hero becomes another generation's symbol of inhumanity — one reason Americans eventually turned away from statues of great men on horses, instead choosing stones decorated with lists of those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-those-confederate-soldier-statues-look-a-lot-like-their-union-counterparts/2017/08/18/cefcc1bc-8394-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html?utm_term=.ee20fdd515eb

Monuments are partially intended to be little "museum" spaces for presentation and education of history.  As well as glorification.   This is the part where I am somewhat ambivalent - we don't do as good a job at museums as we could - we have some great ones, but as with everything, always room for improvement.   I don't think any of these statues should be destroyed, but if gonna take them down  - and I think that is generally a better idea than not - they should go to an educational venue.

Stone Mountain...well that already kinda is.  And needs to have enough information to be an educational event for anyone willing to open their eyes.  Which I know is kind of "utopic" in concept.

One thing is particularly amazing to me - and I have been having a running "gun battle" with some family in the last few days over this.  From people who are known mixed blood involving several Native American tribes, a bit of English, German, and Irish, some Hispanic, and a touch of Jewish and Muslim/Middle Eastern.  The hate we see in Charlottesville and elsewhere is coming from people who feel they are one culture - white. And they really aren't, but that fact doesn't impinge on their reality.  IF all the Klanners and different hate groups were truly all white, well those 24 people in this country would be so horribly inbred as to not be a viable population. And yet, they continue to hate themselves.  Hah!  Eureka - maybe that inbreeding IS the explanation for these people!!  

Yeah, I just had to go there....lol.


And this guy... Chip Barker.  Loser of the month Award!  I guarantee he is not 100% white (because no one is,except for the 24!), but he won't have the balls to do a DNA test to see what he is.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article167939222.html

[cannon_fodder]

In eastern Europe, they left the empty pedestals of the communities leaders after they toppled all of the statutes.  At first because it was sudden. Then because they were broke.   Now it is a testament to history.

Also - with the signing of the declaration of independence, many royal statutes were toppled in the new United States.

Somehow, we still remember the communist dictatorships are bad.  Somehow we still remember the revolutionary war.  Crazy that removing statues doesn't actually change history, or knowledge of it...

[Hoss]

In eastern Europe, they left the empty pedestals of the communities leaders after they toppled all of the statutes.  At first because it was sudden. Then because they were broke.   Now it is a testament to history.

Also - with the signing of the declaration of independence, many royal statutes were toppled in the new United States.

Somehow, we still remember the communist dictatorships are bad.  Somehow we still remember the revolutionary war.  Crazy that removing statues doesn't actually change history, or knowledge of it...

Yeah, and funny that conservatives seem to be the ones always bleating about progressives being SJWs (social justice warriors).

[patric]

Yeah, and funny that conservatives seem to be the ones always bleating about progressives being SJWs (social justice warriors).

Trump labels Boston protesters 'anti-police agitators,' then praises them for 'speaking out against bigotry and hate'
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/20/trump-labels-boston-protesters-anti-police-agitators-then-pra/23075598/

[patric]

Crazy that removing statues doesn't actually change history, or knowledge of it...

Remember this amoral turd?



Its Dylann Roof, and he gained his 15 minutes of fame shooting up a church.  When someone found selfies of him posing with a flea-market Confederate flag the mandate was clear:  Eliminate all the flags and this problem will go away.

We were promised that.  We were called racists if we questioned the efficacy, or the motives.

So everyone took down Confederate flags.  Did it work?

[rebound]

Patrick, et al,

This is a generational thing.   Removing Confederate flags,  changing names on schools, etc, isn't going to have a major immediate effect.  But generationally things will change.   Take away all those symbols, and the next generation will wonder why they were ever up in the first place.  And by the next, the subject will be removed enough (for the vast majority) that they can begin to look at the Civil War and "Old South" in general from a historical perspective and not an emotional one.

Again,  I'm relatively ambivalent on this issue as a whole, but we should not make decisions like this on where we want to be tomorrow, or next week, or even next year,  but rather were we want to be in the next couple of generations.

[BKDotCom]

Patrick.  I generally agree with your comments....

But, you're being a wee bit obtuse here.

Nobody ever claimed that racism would end the moment a confederate flag is taken down.  How would that even work.    Racism would be immediately eliminated at a some radius proportional to the height of the flag?   

[patric]

Nobody ever claimed that racism would end the moment a confederate flag is taken down.  How would that even work.    Racism would be immediately eliminated at a some radius proportional to the height of the flag?   

As illogical as it sounds, I believe there were people saying just that, at the top of their lungs.  Politicians didnt wait for the Logic to appear, they just reacted out of fear of not being re-elected.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The only thing that will stop it is to quit teaching it.

Maybe we should just take all the children of the extremist right at birth so they cannot propagate that philosophy...

Oh, wait... what??

[cannon_fodder]

We were promised that.  We were called racists if we questioned the efficacy, or the motives.

So everyone took down Confederate flags.  Did it work?

Whoa.  I'm not arguing that politicians aren't reactionary, but I don't remember that.  I don't remember being promised that if we take down Confederate Flags we will no longer have hate, anger, crazy people, or violence. I don't think the Germans thought clearing the country of Nazi paraphernalia would stop hate.  But they did think it would hinder their efforts to rally people to the Nazi cause.  Seeing a symbol or monument to your "tribe" has power to it.  That's why monuments exist.

Also, we didn't take down all the Confederate flags.  We just saw it fall in SC last year.  Mississippi still has it as part of the state flag.  Several states issue confederate license places. They are still flying all over the place.  I saw one on the back of a truck this morning.  So even if removing them all would bring about world peace, we didn't remove them all so... gee, we better keep trying.

These are just symbols of a problem.  A Nazi flag never actually killed any Jewish people.  Putting up a Confederate monument at the height of the KKK didn't actually lynch any black people.  But they are meant to be symbols to inspire people with or to a certain belief.  I think it is too far to ban speech/symbols we don't like, but if a community decides they want to remove something they no longer feel represents them - have at it.

I really don't get the push back.  I need you to articulate it.

[patric]

Whoa.  I'm not arguing that politicians aren't reactionary, but I don't remember that.  I don't remember being promised that if we take down Confederate Flags we will no longer have hate, anger, crazy people, or violence. I don't think the Germans thought clearing the country of Nazi paraphernalia would stop hate.  But they did think it would hinder their efforts to rally people to the Nazi cause.  Seeing a symbol or monument to your "tribe" has power to it.  That's why monuments exist.

Also, we didn't take down all the Confederate flags.  We just saw it fall in SC last year.  Mississippi still has it as part of the state flag.  Several states issue confederate license places. They are still flying all over the place.  I saw one on the back of a truck this morning.  So even if removing them all would bring about world peace, we didn't remove them all so... gee, we better keep trying.

These are just symbols of a problem.  A Nazi flag never actually killed any Jewish people.  Putting up a Confederate monument at the height of the KKK didn't actually lynch any black people.  But they are meant to be symbols to inspire people with or to a certain belief.  I think it is too far to ban speech/symbols we don't like, but if a community decides they want to remove something they no longer feel represents them - have at it.

I really don't get the push back.  I need you to articulate it.

"Everyone" was a broad brush on my part; there was a concerted effort to remove flags from public places.  Not 100% but definitely a rolling bandwagon.

Maybe I just feel disgust at people like the KKK or Nazis winning. They seize upon symbols that at one time meant something different and weaponize them.
Do society's loosers rally around swastikas or flags of the Army of Northern Virginia?  Yes, they do today, and they dont really care if those symbols once meant peace or that Americans died defending them.  They win by mis-appropriation.

Of course, I may be over-thinking the problem.  The question was, and should be "What will renaming streets or schools really, really accomplish?"

The answer needs to have a lot more substance than "Its just something we can do."

[dbacksfan 2.0]

The only thing that will stop it is to quit teaching it.

Maybe we should just take all the children of the extremist right at birth so they cannot propagate that philosophy...

Oh, wait... what??

Sure, but take them from the left and the right, be an equal discriminator. Then you can shape them into this.



That way you can just grind them out to believe whatever the political winds bring.