Amazon

[heironymouspasparagus]

While I respect and value most all opinions, I don't understand why some people live here.  Cyrus Avery wouldn't have A "not possible here" attitude.  It's like the people who said the BOK Center would be a failure, etc. Geographically there is nothing Dallas or Kansas City have over Tulsa. How smaller would OKC seem without nearly 84,000 taxpayer paid jobs (State Govt., Tinker, OU, FAA Center) The state legislature is changeable, not an insurmountable road block. Realism/skepticism is great. I live by it. But don'tt confuse realism with cynicism/negativity.  I almost guarantee people who don't dream big either never have much (as much as they could have) or inherited someone else's wealth and play defense with it. I'm sure there are exceptions.  Atlanta got billions in long-term impact from the Olympics --- other cities haven't because they didn't do it right.  Google how the IOC is working to make future bids more sustainable.  But I don't really care about the Olympics. Before it happened, how many would have said you were high to think the Seattle Supersonics would move to OKC? How many would have laughed in your face if told OKC would build a canal and turn a drainage ditch into a river/lake that's now an official Olympic training site?  How many would have laughed if told someobody was going to build the world's biggest vacation spot on 27,000 acres of unusable swampland in central Florida?  Water is an issue for Tulsa? You have to be kidding.  North Texas sued Oklahoma because it has few if any major water sources.  Has that impeded its growth? No.  Ever heard of Las Vegas or the state of California?  Water, really?  As a native, I think small-time thinking has not gotten us very far.  Our population is about the same in the city as it was in the 50s, isn't it? That would be more justifiable if the quality of life for most Tulsans was as good it has been in the past. KC, OKC, Dallas & NW Arkansas have grown because they've dreamed much bigger than we have. I think a lot of people are happy to keep it the way it is and go away when they want something more. We study everything to death and then often do nothing with the results.  It's like the study is the thing. Most of my contemporaries had to move away for opportunity.  I argue that it all starts with a defeatist attitude. Discouraging.           

Welcome to the forum!  Enjoy!!

Some background stuff...

Tulsa population was a little over 140,000 in 1930.  By 1960, we had "grown" to about 160,000 - there used to be a sign with that number at the east city limit - 21st and Memorial.  We are at about 400,000 now.  With the metro area that should be a little over 1,000,000.

I and at least one other have talked about canals before - great idea that we should have started years ago.  And not that piddly little thing that OKC has - REAL, usable canals !

Water is a big issue here - as can be seen by the frequent calls for rationing.  And Texas wanting to force us to give them what we do have.  If somehow we managed to double our population in a short time by getting a bunch of big companies to move here, it would not work.  As for Vegas - false comparison.  First of all, we don't have anywhere near the size of the Colorado river basin.  Even though it dries out just south of the border, it is still a LOT of water!  And we don't have anywhere near the money that Vegas had to enable them to bribe the people who controlled the tap for water.  And CA?  Well, that has been ongoing for a hundred years.  Just like Colorado state - someone else owns the rain that lands on the roof of your house!

A couple decades ago we had a shot at getting a large semiconductor manufacturer (Micron Technology) to come to the state - a process that takes a lot of water.  This was one of the smallest issues to them, but it was on the list, even if at the bottom.  The really BIG things that got us out of the running - education and the one that they actually mentioned when talking about not choosing Oklahoma - it was like talking to kindergartners when discussing this with the state officials!  Their words, not mine.  Keating promised at the time that the state would make Chemical and Electrical engineering programs fi they came.  Like that wouldn't already be 6 to 10 years too late!  If they build plant they need the engineers BEFORE it's open!  Not a few years after!!   But Keating was (and still is) a d-bag clown show all his own.

As for moving the basketball team - we paid the owners enough so that they chose to come here.  

Geographically - yep, no difference from Dal or KC.  Politically, institutional emotional maturity, much different.  You do remember that GM had a really big plant in OKC.?  Gone since about 2005.  For "economic reasons" - it was the first of 12 plants they closed about that time.  First.  That means it was the worst for them for whatever reasons.  Given GM history, management blames labor, but management had at least as big a part in it.  It wasn't labor that made them go bankrupt a few years ago.

Atlanta was a mixed bag.  Some good.  Some bad.  Not a home run by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

As for the state legislature being changeable...well, when are you going to stop voting for the clown show that is in there now??  People who are intentionally hurting our kids.  Only change I have seen is for the worse.  


There is a critical mass thing going on, too.  From 1930 to today, we have gone from about 2.4 million to right at 4 million people - with a dip to 2 million by 1940.  Texas as comparison had a lot more than us at about 5.9 million in 1930.  They are right at 28 million today.  5 times growth while we not quite doubled.  Something very different happened there.  Education has been an emphasis in Texas - by my direct experience - since at least the 1950's.  They bite the bullet and build roads - their FM network is pretty decent.  They have been a very conservative state for a long time, so it is not just conservative versus liberal with them...they are truly looking forward to what is good for the people of the state.  Mostly.   Can't be liquor by the drink, cause they just got that in early 70's.  And some counties are still dry.

You touched on your contemporaries all moving away - all but 1 of our kids, and 16 out of 19 grand and great grand kids had to leave.  Just in the last 20 years.  Because we have NOT looked forward as a state.  We have not progressed to anywhere near our potential.  We have become obsessed with the alt-right BS about cutting taxes, cutting govt. spending, fixating on passing laws that we know are unconstitutional, letting someone else pay for our roads (turnpikes), and cutting education.  In other words, trying hard to dumb down the population so they will continue to vote more conservative and keep the Keatings and Failin's and the Sally Kerns and the majority currently in the State Clown Show in office.

When I was driving a truck I got to talk to a LOT of people about driving through OK.  Turnpikes by far the biggest single gripe right up there with horrible road surface quality...a lot like in New Jersey!   I talked and drove with dozens who literally would go out of their way just to avoid coming through here.  Even if it cost more to avoid the tolls!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Let me make the pitch.  I could sell this city.  Oh and as for that kind of growth... we have done it before, we can do it again.

I could make a case, too!  Have been doing it for years with people I know.  But the view people get from the self-inflicted stuff we do is just too much inertia to overcome - they see what we do and that is the end of it.  Anyone who thinks Amazon doesn't have contact with other places like GM, Hitachi, Micron Technology is just got there head in the sand...or some other dark, dreary place... and doesn't understand the real world.  Glassdoor is a recent development for people to go online and comment about a wide variety of company/job related things - corporate America has done that among their top people for decades.  Probably longer.  They already know who is NOT going to get this.

It's like when someone plans a big conference - unless it is law enforcement or education related groups - the budget limited groups - Tulsa and OKC just aren't gonna get the big events!!  Real stuff is going to the national playgrounds.  Disney, Vegas, other Disney, Chicago, New York, big cities with Pappadeaux's (Dallas and Houston).

[TulsaBeMore]

Hello heironymouspasparagus (& anyone else)

Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate it.

Realize my comments are coming from the cheap seats. I am not a newcomer to Tulsa. I was born here many decades ago - just a point of reference - doesn't mean a ton.  I've followed this type of chatter on Tulsa for years. This has not been a super-negative thread.  Somebody said it's pragmatic.  OK.

A few thoughts:

If Amazon has contact with GM, Hitachi, etc., it also has contact with Google, GE, Boeing, American Airlines, Macy's & others --- especially the ones that have recently moved here or expanded.    

Lack of entertainment may be a reason conventions don't come, but I know a little about that business and a primary reason is a lack of enough exhibit/meeting space and big blocks of hotel rooms. Oklahoma City is rectifying that some with a new convention center and Omni Hotel.  I'm not saying get a new one as they are often loss leaders, but they can bring a bunch of financial impact to a city.  Look at Music City Center in Nashville.

Speaking of Nashville, that city is on fire.  Growing exponentially.  It's ranked ***32nd*** among the states for quality of education in U.S. News report. Oklahoma is ***30th***.  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings.  In fact, Tennessee, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina --- all rank lower than Oklahoma when it comes to education. If I read it properly, it looks like Oklahoma does a better job educating its kids than Texas as a whole. Sure wealthy DFW is a different story.  I just don't know if Oklahoma's poor education system is a best argument for a lack of growth. The poor education system has become religion to many.  Problem, yes. Need to be better, yes. Primary or biggest reason nothing happens? Don't see it ---  unless the drumbeat is all people in the other 49 have seen about us other than tornadoes.  

Massachusetts is #1 in education. Have you driven west from Boston?  Nothing but turnpike to the state line as I recall and it was way more expensive than driving across our state.

A lot of places in those states I cited are booming. I subscribe to a national business facilities/relocation publication and somebody is building a factory/warehouse or relocating a HQs/regional HQs every other week to Georgia, Texas, South Carolina or Tennessee.  I rarely see Oklahoma mentioned.

I'll give you the water.  But even there, from what I read, Utah, Nevada, California are worse.  Oregon, Colorado,Texas & Kansas also on "the lack of water" list.  Using just Utah, Salt Lake City is booming and has been for years.  I don't know that water is affecting any city's immediate growth - if not, probably should.  (Doesn't Google use a lot of water at its server farm - maybe not?  Kimberly-Clark? The label on the bottled water I drink says it comes from the Dallas municipal supply and from Ontario, CA. Who's letting water be an issue?)    

Those growth states are all offering incentives, I guess.  Not sure where the money comes from in all instances. It looked like incentives was the reason Macy's landed here. Why can't we compete on that level with at least Mississippi?

Here's what I think a part of the growth issue might be in Tulsa. Honestly believe it's a state of mind.  I grew up with a family whose dad was a teaching doctor.  Big family.  They had lived in two states by the time I met up with them in 6th grade.  They left when my friend in the family was a junior in high school.  They lived in 2 other places by the time I hit 25.  Now as adults and geriatrics they've all congregated in Phoenix, Scottsdale & Flagstaff.  Real down to earth.  We all talked about Tulsa at a Phoenix wedding 15 years ago.  Out of all the places they had lived, they said Tulsans were as publicly friendly as they come, generous, made lifelong friends and the city was gorgeous.  At the same time, most in the family also thought Tulsa was the most snobbish, country club-ish, click-ish, set-in-its-way cities of those they lived from Maine to Colorado to Iowa and Arizona.  I've heard similar from a couple of others too (one from OKC should be disqualified).  I never really thought so.  But, is there anything to it?  We like it the way it is for the most part - PERIOD. We're only going to try so hard to lure you. Silly?

Consider one thing that has, historically, made Tulsa great might be holding it back a little.  It seems like there are 5 or 6 last names that have had prominent roles in the development of  Tulsa since I've been alive.  Most all benevolent benefactors who have given huge chunks of their wealth --- many now are 3rd generation responsible wealth managers as opposed to fire-in-the-belly 1st generation gambler types.  Our current mayor seems like a good man and very competent - he's the 4th guy in his family to be Tulsa mayor.  Can 6-7 legacy families with great influence limit potential?  Limited diversity of control?  Inhibit creativity or civic ownership?  Or just shut up and be grateful these successful folks bother?   It could be totally off-base.  I think in addition to the many thoughtful benefactors we're fortunate to have, we also could benefit from a Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban type --- someone to be more of a bull in a china closet with some grand, ridiculous sounding initiatives that people never imagined. A high risk-reward type.  We need a Willy Wonka or a P.T. Barnum. We need people to be inspired and sometimes believe in the unbelievable.  Be a little less reasoned.  It often happens elsewhere, why couldn't it happen here?  Over recent years we see companies that are ready to takeoff being sold out-of-state with the owners staying here and  starting foundations. I am thankful.  I just wish more of these talented folks would build their businesses into powerhouses (like Larry Nichols at Devon in OKC/McClendon at Cheseapeake). That's as good or better a legacy than donating your money and being rewarded with a name on a building or a hospital.  All in my opinion which I really have no right to in this regard!  You build it. You do what you want with it. Many of these families are graciously doing both.  I know I'm welcome to get off my backside and put some hard earned skin in the game too.  

I'm willing to swallow the previous two paragraphs.  

You have to ask why other cities are growing way faster than we are. They all have issues.  They all have negatives - most as many or more than we do.  It's not about being an insipid "cheerleader." It's about focusing on and pushing the positive. It's about getting on a roll and expecting good things to happen. What is right instead of emphasizing what is wrong. Sure correct the problems, but I think we dwell on them.  It's often like an echo chamber - do other cities focus as much on their shortcomings as I think a lot of us Tulsans do?  Not so much in this forum, but when you talk with friends and people you've known --- it's almost like a citywide lack of self-esteem in as far as what Tulsa can be or wants to be.  It's about quality of living. If you're stagnant and not growing you're dying, right? We're not stagnant, but growth has been hard to come by the last couple of decades.  Could just be me!  OK no more book-length diatribes.      

 

[cannon_fodder]

Thanks for the quality dissent!  Too often forums are either group thinkers or trolls.  Appreciate the different perspective.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Hello heironymouspasparagus (& anyone else)

Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate it.

Realize my comments are coming from the cheap seats. I am not a newcomer to Tulsa. I was born here many decades ago - just a point of reference - doesn't mean a ton.  I've followed this type of chatter on Tulsa for years. This has not been a super-negative thread.  Somebody said it's pragmatic.  OK.

A few thoughts:

If Amazon has contact with GM, Hitachi, etc., it also has contact with Google, GE, Boeing, American Airlines, Macy's & others --- especially the ones that have recently moved here or expanded.    

Lack of entertainment may be a reason conventions don't come, but I know a little about that business and a primary reason is a lack of enough exhibit/meeting space and big blocks of hotel rooms. Oklahoma City is rectifying that some with a new convention center and Omni Hotel.  I'm not saying get a new one as they are often loss leaders, but they can bring a bunch of financial impact to a city.  Look at Music City Center in Nashville.

Speaking of Nashville, that city is on fire.  Growing exponentially.  It's ranked ***32nd*** among the states for quality of education in U.S. News report. Oklahoma is ***30th***.  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings.  In fact, Tennessee, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina --- all rank lower than Oklahoma when it comes to education. If I read it properly, it looks like Oklahoma does a better job educating its kids than Texas as a whole. Sure wealthy DFW is a different story.  I just don't know if Oklahoma's poor education system is a best argument for a lack of growth. The poor education system has become religion to many.  Problem, yes. Need to be better, yes. Primary or biggest reason nothing happens? Don't see it ---  unless the drumbeat is all people in the other 49 have seen about us other than tornadoes.  

Massachusetts is #1 in education. Have you driven west from Boston?  Nothing but turnpike to the state line as I recall and it was way more expensive than driving across our state.

A lot of places in those states I cited are booming. I subscribe to a national business facilities/relocation publication and somebody is building a factory/warehouse or relocating a HQs/regional HQs every other week to Georgia, Texas, South Carolina or Tennessee.  I rarely see Oklahoma mentioned.

I'll give you the water.  But even there, from what I read, Utah, Nevada, California are worse.  Oregon, Colorado,Texas & Kansas also on "the lack of water" list.  Using just Utah, Salt Lake City is booming and has been for years.  I don't know that water is affecting any city's immediate growth - if not, probably should.  (Doesn't Google use a lot of water at its server farm - maybe not?  Kimberly-Clark? The label on the bottled water I drink says it comes from the Dallas municipal supply and from Ontario, CA. Who's letting water be an issue?)    

Those growth states are all offering incentives, I guess.  Not sure where the money comes from in all instances. It looked like incentives was the reason Macy's landed here. Why can't we compete on that level with at least Mississippi?

Here's what I think a part of the growth issue might be in Tulsa. Honestly believe it's a state of mind.  I grew up with a family whose dad was a teaching doctor.  Big family.  They had lived in two states by the time I met up with them in 6th grade.  They left when my friend in the family was a junior in high school.  They lived in 2 other places by the time I hit 25.  Now as adults and geriatrics they've all congregated in Phoenix, Scottsdale & Flagstaff.  Real down to earth.  We all talked about Tulsa at a Phoenix wedding 15 years ago.  Out of all the places they had lived, they said Tulsans were as publicly friendly as they come, generous, made lifelong friends and the city was gorgeous.  At the same time, most in the family also thought Tulsa was the most snobbish, country club-ish, click-ish, set-in-its-way cities of those they lived from Maine to Colorado to Iowa and Arizona.  I've heard similar from a couple of others too (one from OKC should be disqualified).  I never really thought so.  But, is there anything to it?  We like it the way it is for the most part - PERIOD. We're only going to try so hard to lure you. Silly?

Consider one thing that has, historically, made Tulsa great might be holding it back a little.  It seems like there are 5 or 6 last names that have had prominent roles in the development of  Tulsa since I've been alive.  Most all benevolent benefactors who have given huge chunks of their wealth --- many now are 3rd generation responsible wealth managers as opposed to fire-in-the-belly 1st generation gambler types.  Our current mayor seems like a good man and very competent - he's the 4th guy in his family to be Tulsa mayor.  Can 6-7 legacy families with great influence limit potential?  Limited diversity of control?  Inhibit creativity or civic ownership?  Or just shut up and be grateful these successful folks bother?   It could be totally off-base.  I think in addition to the many thoughtful benefactors we're fortunate to have, we also could benefit from a Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban type --- someone to be more of a bull in a china closet with some grand, ridiculous sounding initiatives that people never imagined. A high risk-reward type.  We need a Willy Wonka or a P.T. Barnum. We need people to be inspired and sometimes believe in the unbelievable.  Be a little less reasoned.  It often happens elsewhere, why couldn't it happen here?  Over recent years we see companies that are ready to takeoff being sold out-of-state with the owners staying here and  starting foundations. I am thankful.  I just wish more of these talented folks would build their businesses into powerhouses (like Larry Nichols at Devon in OKC/McClendon at Cheseapeake). That's as good or better a legacy than donating your money and being rewarded with a name on a building or a hospital.  All in my opinion which I really have no right to in this regard!  You build it. You do what you want with it. Many of these families are graciously doing both.  I know I'm welcome to get off my backside and put some hard earned skin in the game too.  

I'm willing to swallow the previous two paragraphs.  

You have to ask why other cities are growing way faster than we are. They all have issues.  They all have negatives - most as many or more than we do.  It's not about being an insipid "cheerleader." It's about focusing on and pushing the positive. It's about getting on a roll and expecting good things to happen. What is right instead of emphasizing what is wrong. Sure correct the problems, but I think we dwell on them.  It's often like an echo chamber - do other cities focus as much on their shortcomings as I think a lot of us Tulsans do?  Not so much in this forum, but when you talk with friends and people you've known --- it's almost like a citywide lack of self-esteem in as far as what Tulsa can be or wants to be.  It's about quality of living. If you're stagnant and not growing you're dying, right? We're not stagnant, but growth has been hard to come by the last couple of decades.  Could just be me!  OK no more book-length diatribes.      

 

Nice!  I like it.  Always good to have thoughtful input to offset the "soundbite" patrol.

Google has moved here in recent years in a pretty big way for Oklahoma - they have a big server farm at Mid-America in Pryor.  They don't use that much water overall - as compared to a semiconductor manufacturing plant.  They use a LOT of electricity!!  They have also been VERY big on putting solar power on their facilities, which would be distasteful to many Okies.  And Pryor fit the bill with really cheap electricity and very cheap labor.  That has been one of the biggest characteristics of companies that have moved here in recent decades - cheap labor.  Whirlpool made a big deal out of it when they came.  Macy's - it is a big attraction.  Plus throwing tens of millions $$ at them doesn't hurt.

Education - I have family and friends in TN (and a few other states)  Have watched most of them grow up from birth and the education they get in rural TN is at least keeping up with OK.  Go to the cities and it is more nuanced.  And the whole state is so super-saturated in right wing extremism, it reminds me of OK with a southern accent.  They also have just recently gotten enough good sense to offer free tuition for community college level work.  Something we are soooo far behind on.  And they have not been cutting education budgets like we have.

Nashville area has grown a lot in the last couple decades - massively in the southeast near Smyrna/La Vergne/Murfreesboro.  And Franklin has become the location of choice for McMansions in mid-TN.  They even have a castle near Franklin at Alt-31 exit off 840!  But they still have Memphis!  Most in TN feel that should be handed over to Arkansas.  By force if necessary!  They could have a big canal project like the Panama canal to re-route the Mississippi river over to the east of Memphis - between there and say, Germantown.

Water here is ok for where we are today -we would have problems if we 'doubled' again, though.  Those western cities are on borrowed time, living in a fantasy world that will come crashing down.  The seniors who are there today look at it in a special way, too - "We got ours, won't live long enough to see the collapse, and don't care after dead and gone anyway."  

Tulsa is clique-ish.  Just like everywhere else.  Just try to fit in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan.  Minnesota has a 'feature' or characteristic called "Minnesota Nice".  Daughter saw that up close for a couple of years.  If you didn't grow up here, you don't count for at least the 2nd or 3rd generation.  If then.  East TN is like that.  When I first returned to the area it was with family who had been there a long time.  Turns out there is a street there named after one of my ancestors - from early 1900's.  Banker, Senator, big shot in town.  I still don't quite fit in yet after 35+ years, but getting close.  There are the same half dozen family names that run the show in that small pond and they are as corrupt as anything here or Louisiana.  And they have had some good industry over the years - hardwood floors, Wrangler, an automotive air bag company.  All left - the low wages weren't worth the parochial BS.  (See Micron and kindergartners elsewhere...)  They found other low wage places elsewhere.  It's a balancing act - keep people uneducated enough to stand the substandard pay, while not keeping them dumb enough so that the enterprise cannot be successful.  Getting them to buy into right wing extremist propaganda works well.

Don't swallow the 2 paragraphs!  Never walk back something if you aren't wrong about it - and your opinion isn't wrong until you decide to change it.  Good thoughts there.  I would take exception to the part about "you built it..."  None of them built it by themselves.  They built it with LOTS of help from many others.  So when it comes time to cash out, as I have talked about before, our tax system should take that into account and create a preferred method that encourages sale to employee groups first, if there is the desire to continue in place.  As you stated, there have been many sold out of state where the ultimate end game was moving away from here and leaving Tulsa without.   The first, most obvious method would be that if an employee group buys it out and keeps it here, the seller gets a break on capital gains taxes.  If they sell out of state, it is treated like an estate tax with no recourse to 'trust fund' status.  15 to 20% tax versus 55%.  I'm betting each seller would work very hard to make the sale to local
employee group.


Growth has been steady here for those couple of decades.  If you remember the 70's and 80's...that was slow/stagnant growth!


And curiosity piqued - one from OKC should be disqualified??  Anyone here on this site?

[Oil Capital]

Welcome to the forum!  Enjoy!!

Some background stuff...

Tulsa population was a little over 140,000 in 1930.  By 1960, we had "grown" to about 160,000 - there used to be a sign with that number at the east city limit - 21st and Memorial.  We are at about 400,000 now.  With the metro area that should be a little over 1,000,000.

Tulsa's population in 1960 was a little over 261,000.  Metro area should be hitting 1 Million very soon; probably not there quite yet.

[TeeDub]

Education - I have family and friends in TN (and a few other states)  Have watched most of them grow up from birth and the education they get in rural TN is at least keeping up with OK.  Go to the cities and it is more nuanced.  And the whole state is so super-saturated in right wing extremism, it reminds me of OK with a southern accent.  They also have just recently gotten enough good sense to offer free tuition for community college level work.  Something we are soooo far behind on.  And they have not been cutting education budgets like we have.

I agree with most of your points, but would like to point out that large chunks of Oklahoma do have free community college offerings. 

"Tulsa Community College started offering free tuition eight years ago, helping to inspire Tennessee's program...."
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/05/tulsa-community-colleges-free-tuition-program-has-paid-while-inspiring-others

The OKC-GO program, instituted a dozen years ago, allowed eligible high school graduates to attend OCCC tuition-free. The updated version of the program — called OKC-GO 2.0 — has all of the same benefits of the initial program, but also waives the fees and removes the time limit to graduation.
http://newsok.com/article/4748921

Other rural Oklahoma Community College offerings.
http://www.okhighered.org/okpromise/

[heironymouspasparagus]

Tulsa's population in 1960 was a little over 261,000.  Metro area should be hitting 1 Million very soon; probably not there quite yet.

Yeah.  I think the sign they had was just kind of out of date.  They may have been trying to keep a "small town feel" to it.  We had not doubled in 30 years...   Most of the growth we did see was in the 50's.  30's and 40's were dead quiet.   Maybe people still think of us as a dust bowl.

I see two kinds of metro area count.  One says 900+ k.  Other says 1.1 million.  About a million...

[heironymouspasparagus]

I agree with most of your points, but would like to point out that large chunks of Oklahoma do have free community college offerings. 

"Tulsa Community College started offering free tuition eight years ago, helping to inspire Tennessee's program...."
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/05/tulsa-community-colleges-free-tuition-program-has-paid-while-inspiring-others

The OKC-GO program, instituted a dozen years ago, allowed eligible high school graduates to attend OCCC tuition-free. The updated version of the program — called OKC-GO 2.0 — has all of the same benefits of the initial program, but also waives the fees and removes the time limit to graduation.
http://newsok.com/article/4748921

Other rural Oklahoma Community College offerings.
http://www.okhighered.org/okpromise/

Have two grandkids who tried to get that - the conditions were tough enough that it weeded out a lot of kids at that time (about 7 years ago).  We really weren't that serious about it - changes have come, it looks like.  Have a new crew coming up in the next couple of years - will be pushing them hard to get into that!

We need to be much more aggressive about it and include vo-tech training too!  There is much wringing of hands about not enough people going into the trades (at the same time we are whining about illegals taking "all the good jobs...")  We have a great vo-tech system in northeast OK!  I have participated in several topics over many years.  We just need to expand to get more kids in the system.



Now if we could just get the RWRE to quit saying their stupid stuff ridiculing free college tuition in CA and other places, maybe people would be able to understand how really good it is for society to invest like that.

[TeeDub]

I hadn't looked...   But apparently in 2014 Tulsa Tech offered something similar.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/finance/tulsa-tech-creates-free-tuition-scholarship-program/article_a05e7bfc-ee0b-580b-8585-d60ddba23fec.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Good starts on both fronts!!

Finally, a little progressive thought getting into the Oklahoma psyche!!



I went to truck driving school at Central Tech quite a few years ago - excellent facility with some really great teachers!  There was one instructor there who could back a set of 53' doubles!  Much more than a couple dozen feet.  That is an amazing feat - there are not many who can do that.  Most the drivers on the road today have trouble with 1 trailer....!

[SXSW]

I see two kinds of metro area count.  One says 900+ k.  Other says 1.1 million.  About a million...

The MSA or metro area is 981,005 (2015) and includes Tulsa, Creek, Pawnee, Osage, Rogers, Wagoner and Okmulgee counties.  The CSA is 1,151,172 (2015) and also includes Washington, Cherokee and Muskogee counties. 

For comparison the OKC metro is 1,358,452 (2015) with a CSA of 1,430,327 (2015).  It's likely that Payne County with 80,000 people will get absorbed by either the OKC or Tulsa CSA at some point. 

Between OKC, Tulsa and Stillwater the "Oklahoma megalopolis" has a population of 2,661,499 or over 2/3 of the state population.  Why we don't have a rail system connecting the two cities still baffles me..

[TeeDub]

Why we don't have a rail system connecting the two cities still baffles me..

Because once you got there, neither has a reliable or robust infrastructure to get you where you wanted to go.   Might as well drive the 2 hours and have your car to actually get somewhere.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Because once you got there, neither has a reliable or robust infrastructure to get you where you wanted to go.   Might as well drive the 2 hours and have your car to actually get somewhere.

Some universal truths are just so sad...!!

[TeeDub]

Some universal truths are just so sad...!!

It's true of most every big city that isn't on the east coast.  (And most of those states have decent park and rides, but still not enough to do away with a car all together.)    We aren't Europe.