Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel

[Rattle Trap]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/muscogee-creek-nation-exploring-building-downtown-tulsa-hotel/article_8da06a0a-c170-55cb-9931-b6ef5ce1f3a8.amp.html

[Rattle Trap]

Probably could've included this on the downtown development or arena district thread. My bad

[swake]

So apparently these renderings were sent out as part of a survey of BOK Center patrons on May 10th asking for feedback showing a food hall and hotel. The survey mentions a 300 room hotel, but not a casino.

This can't be a coincidence.

https://www.fox23.com/news/survey-sent-to-bok-center-customers-about-possible-hotel-food-hall/948265171

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

So apparently these renderings were sent out as part of a survey of BOK Center patrons on May 10th asking for feedback showing a food hall and hotel. The survey mentions a 300 room hotel, but not a casino.

This can't be a coincidence.

https://www.fox23.com/news/survey-sent-to-bok-center-customers-about-possible-hotel-food-hall/948265171

That looks pretty neat. I do wonder about putting the cart before the horse with all of this development that requires a big influx of residents without the residential filled up yet. BOK Center events aren't enough to sustain something like that. The places across from there seem pretty deserted most of the time after 5 or on weekend afternoons. There's very little residential right around the BOK center and parking is already viewed as tough near there, even though it is quite plentiful. If they take the block mentioned and turn it into that without a garage, it'll be tough to bring in many people as Tulsans are trained to be lazy about that sort of thing and want to park and walk in to eat quickly. I'm guessing this would do really well if there were a couple thousand or so more residents in the IDL.

Also, there's already a great food hall at 11th and Lewis that is popular and already utilizing a lot of the great up-and-coming talent/franchises in the city. I think it had something to do with the building at 1st and Greenwood cancelling the planned Food Hall. It would probably be tough to support 2 big food halls in midtown/downtown at this point. Eventually, the culture should shift to demand that, but I have a feeling South Tulsa will get one before too long and it'll further spread the market out. This one looks like it'll dwarf Mother Road Market too.

[ELG4America]

They need to wrap the whole 1st floor of the development in retail. The rendering seems to show a half block concrete dead space. If that is on both sides then we'll end up with another block that has an expensive new build on it but without walkability. Cimarex II.

Also I question the value of a 300 room hotel and food hall in that space. I too am concerned that the lunch market will not bear 10-12 new food vendors in downtown and the dinner market is definitely not there yet, exempting show nights. My counter is: combine this concept with the proposed convention center hotel of ~800 rooms. The two have natural synergies. Build on the Page-Belcher lot with access to existing parking. Expand the existing structure if necessary. Relocate the Federal Court and Post Office to new buildings elsewhere in downtown.

[swake]

They need to wrap the whole 1st floor of the development in retail. The rendering seems to show a half block concrete dead space. If that is on both sides then we'll end up with another block that has an expensive new build on it but without walkability. Cimarex II.

Also I question the value of a 300 room hotel and food hall in that space. I too am concerned that the lunch market will not bear 10-12 new food vendors in downtown and the dinner market is definitely not there yet, exempting show nights. My counter is: combine this concept with the proposed convention center hotel of ~800 rooms. The two have natural synergies. Build on the Page-Belcher lot with access to existing parking. Expand the existing structure if necessary. Relocate the Federal Court and Post Office to new buildings elsewhere in downtown.

Let's be honest. It's a casino project wrapped in the guise of a food hall and hotel to make it more palatable. The hotel and restaurants will fill themselves.

[Rattle Trap]

This may be comparing apples to oranges here but last time I was in New Orleans (new years in 2017) I went to their downtown casino and it was extremely busy, as was the area around the casino.

I went to Baltimore for work last year and their downtown casino was also quite busy. I know not everyone likes casinos but the reality is when a large casino pops up it brings people to the area. Look what the hard rock did for catoosa and what the river spirit did to that area. My only concern is over saturation of the casino market (if that's even possible) lol....

People love their casinos around here. If you build it they will come, right?

[Townsend]

This may be comparing apples to oranges here but last time I was in New Orleans (new years in 2017) I went to their downtown casino and it was extremely busy, as was the area around the casino.

I went to Baltimore for work last year and their downtown casino was also quite busy. I know not everyone likes casinos but the reality is when a large casino pops up it brings people to the area. Look what the hard rock did for catoosa and what the river spirit did to that area. My only concern is over saturation of the casino market (if that's even possible) lol....

People love their casinos around here. If you build it they will come, right?

I went to the Hard Rock for a wedding a few weeks ago.  I'm not sure what kind of clientele would frequent a Tulsa downtown casino but the Hard Rock was depressing as Hell.

The stank and sadness were overwhelming.  I couldn't get out of there quickly enough.

[hello]

I went to the Hard Rock for a wedding a few weeks ago.  I'm not sure what kind of clientele would frequent a Tulsa downtown casino but the Hard Rock was depressing as Hell.

The stank and sadness were overwhelming.  I couldn't get out of there quickly enough.

Isn't that all Casinos? I would rather they not come to Downtown.

[SXSW]

Isn't that all Casinos? I would rather they not come to Downtown.

If there is a casino downtown I would rather see it by the BOK then in one of the other already-vibrant areas like the Blue Dome or Arts District.  I like ELG's idea of combining this with a convention center hotel on the Page Belcher site.

[swake]

I think it's a different entertainment option for downtown that will increase the number of people and amount of business downtown. How is that bad? And it's a downtown entertainment option that not that many cities have. The only downtown casinos I can think of in the entire central part of the country are in New Orleans and the riverboats in St Louis.

This preliminary design isn't great, but it doesn't blow up the street grid and it kills an entire block of surface parking. The area of downtown near the BOK is pretty dead at night when there's not an event, that would no longer be the case. And it adds a few hundred more hotel rooms to the area around the convention center. The city should press for a better design and be happy with a large hotel without its hand out for TIFF money.

[DTowner]

I agree with swake, this project is all about the casino.  That said, the land being talked about hasn't even been purchased by the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, much less put into trust or approved for gaming.  Also keep in mind we are still waiting on the MCN to build that south Tulsa bridge over the Arkansas River, pay for part of a low water dam in Jenks, offer water taxis between River Spirit and River Walk, etc. 

[erfalf]

Yeah, I'm also a bit confused at the push back on a casino. Several major cities that aren't in Nevada have major casinos in their central business district. It's not like they attract  an undesirable lot or anything. Just because not everyone is a interested in going doesn't make it a bad idea.

My questions is, can they somehow make it non-smoking? That to me is the least desirable thing about Hard Rock.

[Rattle Trap]

I guess I don't understand why a downtown casino would be a negative thing. Sure you get some sketchy people in casinos, but you also get 20 something year olds and middle class couples there to have a good time. I would again point to what other large casinos have done to the surrounding areas of the Hard Rock and Riverspirit.

Pros:
1. it attracts a steady crowd of people to an area of downtown that is dead without a major concert happening
2. It adds another type of entertainment downtown
3. It would absolutely act as a catalyst for the area, if done correctly.
4. It fulfills a need of adding hotel rooms to downtown

Cons:
1. It attracts smokers and the occasional gambling addict to the area?
2. This proposed project is a long way off from actually happening.

[DowntownDan]

This project is not the typical casino model and will bear little resemblance to Hard Rock or River Spirit. The elderly and the suburban and rural crowd who frequent the casinos won't go downtown to gamble (there is little room for their F-350 duallys and they may have to pay and walk a few blocks--unthinkable to a rural or suburbanite). I fully believe them that the casino will be a "small" casino and the focus will be the food hall and hotel. On big event nights (especially country music nights) the casino will likely be busy but will not be a big draw on a typical weekend. The food hall and hotel will be a more solid source of revenue. The casino will have a steady stream of business but the location won't justify a large gaming property. Different business model entirely. In my view, anything that takes up a parking lot downtown is a good thing.