Massive new car factory for Pryor

[Vision 2025]

I believe the TIF is valued somewhere around $400 million in terms of property tax rebates over the next 12 years so the total "package" of tax credits and rebates from state & local in OK is around $1.1 Billion

Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?

[swake]

Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?

Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.

[heironymouspasparagus]

What manufacturing isn't toxic? Is it going to be any more toxic than oil & gas drilling and refining? Doubtful.

There's a far bigger toxic wasteland along the west bank of the Arkansas River with the two giant refineries that pollutes and endangers far more people than this factory will. 

And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....

[Vision 2025]

Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.

It would on construction of the facility.

[LandArchPoke]

It would on construction of the facility.

I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.

[LandArchPoke]

And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....

It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.

[Vision 2025]

I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.

Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.

[LandArchPoke]

Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.

Maybe I just wasn't clear on what I meant is that delivery on construction materials doesn't always mean at the specific construction site. It depends on what contractors/subs are being used and how materials are being sourced. Point of delivery for many things construction related typically happens through a subcontractor and the sub is then responsible for getting the materials to the site, installed, etc. Especially for large projects the materials are usually 'delivered' where they are made and then the contract/sub is responsible for getting it to the site and installed. So the sales tax is recorded at that location not at the site the material is being installed. It's a big game of depends on where the technicality of 'delivery' is, my guess is for a project of this scope and size most of the 'delivery' locations where sales taxes are being recorded and paid is not within the boundaries of this TIF. Not any different than if a framer went to M&M lumber, bought lumber there in Tulsa, and built the house in Broken Arrow. The sales tax was paid and recorded in Tulsa, M&M lumber delivered the product at the warehouse - now if they ship the materials themselves directly to a site that's a different question. So really it's a big question of depends and they likely aren't going to take any of that into consideration to value a TIF. Regardless, this TIF is being calculated off the ad valorem taxes anyways, which given the value of the project is pretty significant and far less of a guessing game than sales taxes are - typically if there's any bonding related to projects sales taxes is far more speculative than ad valorem taxes is the 'risk' profile of a bond. Which from what I've read, it sounds like this isn't being bonded either and is a rebate versus upfront payment in the TIF portion of these incentives.   

[Vision 2025]

They won't be shopping at Lowe's, point of delivery will be the site for the much of the materials and remote (out of State) built assemblies delivered to the site are subject to USE Tax and together these are potentially a significant revenue stream which is why I asked.

Advance bond funding of a TIF can be challenging as there is no incremental tax increase (the revenue stream) until actual physical work is being done on the site and then the increment is only calculated annually (beginning at the next assessment cycle following creation of the TIF) during each years assessment cycle.  Advance funding takes a lot of disclosure by the entity benefitting, but they can qualify for further savings by utilizing public issued (conduit debt) tax exempt bonds which reduces the interested rate and if done correctly transfers no risk to the entity.   

Regardless, TIF's are a great funding tool, no construction = no incremental increase in the property value and no risk to the public should it not materialize.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.

I agree completely and absolutely that we should first, develop what we can out of this.  And second, make sure there are bonds or deposits, or something that assures the ability to clean up the mess when they are done here and bail out.

I don't think anything will come of it just because of the ongoing national embarrassment that the Republicans in office bring to the state.  Every.  Single.  Day.!!

Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

https://news.yahoo.com/republican-oklahoma-candidate-says-try-155731253.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

[Red Arrow]

Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

That kind of behavior is embarrassing.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That kind of behavior is embarrassing.

Everything we have come to expect from Putin and more!

[LandArchPoke]

TIF was approved. Petition has been started and will require signatures of 10% of Mayes County registered voters to sign which would take the issue to voters in November to approve the TIF. Likelihood of this petition getting that many signatures is pretty slim. The TIF hearings were fairly full, but wasn't 100% people against it and would expect that if something needs that many signatures there would have needed to be a significant outpouring of negativity and organization for that to be a real challenge.

I do wonder if the petition will cause Panasonic any delay in announcing its decision or if they will wait until after the deadline for signature submittals to make it public.

[ComeOnBenjals]

Ugh... who created the petition?

[LandArchPoke]

What corporations would move to Oklahoma when we pass laws like this?

OS Title 63 Section 1-745.39

K. Notwithstanding any other law, a civil action under this
section shall not be brought:

4. By a person who impregnated a woman seeking an abortion
through an act of rape, sexual assault, incest, or any other act
prohibited by state law.
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENR/SB/SB1503%20ENR.PDF

Even Amazon is paying employees to leave Oklahoma to seek medical procedures:
https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-reimburse-us-employees-who-travel-treatments-including-abortions-2022-05-02/

While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today.