PAC Parking Lot Development

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I read the article from Nondoc, and when I read that the head of Oasis has former ties to ORU and Victory Christian and now it seems the OSBI is involved I just have to shake my head. I had enough of Victory from an ex mil back in the mid 80's to last me a lifetime, and any mention of ORU and the first thought is "I must have $8 million or God is going to call me home."

Back to the grocery store issue, having Reasor's on board in the beginning made sense to have someone local involved. Did their pulling out have to do with Brookshire taking over? IIRC Reasor's withdrew in 2021 and announced 6 months later the buyout. It surprises me that someone like TJ, Wholepaycheck, Sprouts, Aldi, or Walmart Neighborhood Market hasn't stepped forward. They say they are looking for a "first class grocer" would meet the criteria. It just seems strange that no one has really made an effort, but at the same time I can see where they night be hesitant with this project closing in on the 10 year mark with no real movement.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21163.0

[Markk]

Based on news items I've seen over the last several months my guess is that retail shrink is what's keeping big names from stepping in. 

[shavethewhales]

Yeah, the homeless problem downtown is probably concerning for them. I've never actually been to the Reasor's on 15th, but I imagine they must have to have security guards like many of them do anyway. The DGX probably deals with tons of theft. Many times I've tried to stop by there in the evenings when they are supposed to be open and the doors will be locked with the lights on. I think the employees just take it into their own hands and close it whenever it's late or just not safe. I'm sure a full grocery store would need multiple security personnel at all times.

Still, it would stay busy. A decent deli counter would clean up. I work downtown and walk around each day, and there are hundreds of people going to lunch. Many of them go to DGX and get cheap heat-up meals. Hard to find much at the food court in Williams tower that is under $12 or so.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Is the shrink/shoplifting/theft just downtown or is spread among the other grocer locations? It just seems that a downtown store while having to have stepped up security would still be a profitable location.

I was reading the other day about the changing landscape for grocers in general with the merger between Kroger and Albertson's/Safe Way to compete with Walmart and Amazon. As a result of the merger they are selling 400+ stores to C&S Grocery Wholesale which owns Piggly Wiggly in the south east US and C&S will acquire Albertson's here in Arizona but will keep the Albertson's name. It was interesting in some of the reading I did that neither Kroger, Albertson's/Safeway and C&S (Kroger does have a delivery only service with a distribution center between OKC and Edmond) have any stores in Oklahoma. Every state around OK has some combination of stores from those. Seems Walmart has kind of a stranglehold on grocery in OK.

I know that there is Sprouts, Whole Foods, Aldi, Trader Joe's and Winco, but it just seems like there are fewer stores in general than there used to be.

[swake]

Is the shrink/shoplifting/theft just downtown or is spread among the other grocer locations? It just seems that a downtown store while having to have stepped up security would still be a profitable location.

I was reading the other day about the changing landscape for grocers in general with the merger between Kroger and Albertson's/Safe Way to compete with Walmart and Amazon. As a result of the merger they are selling 400+ stores to C&S Grocery Wholesale which owns Piggly Wiggly in the south east US and C&S will acquire Albertson's here in Arizona but will keep the Albertson's name. It was interesting in some of the reading I did that neither Kroger, Albertson's/Safeway and C&S (Kroger does have a delivery only service with a distribution center between OKC and Edmond) have any stores in Oklahoma. Every state around OK has some combination of stores from those. Seems Walmart has kind of a stranglehold on grocery in OK.

I know that there is Sprouts, Whole Foods, Aldi, Trader Joe's and Winco, but it just seems like there are fewer stores in general than there used to be.

Safeway in Oklahoma was long ago was spun off to it's own chain, Homeland, which is now gone from Tulsa. Reasor's bought out the Tulsa area Albertsons stores, I'm not sure what happened with the OKC area Albertsons stores.

I don't feel I have a lack of grocery stores to choose from. We mostly shop at Reasor's and Target, but within about a 10 minute drive we also have Walmart, Sprouts, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Aldi, Sam's, Costco, and various Asian and Hispanic markets to choose from. I don't know Winco. There's also Warehouse Market chain, but I don't know of one close to me.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

The apparent lack is probably just my own perception since the players and locations have changed a lot since I left. I remember when it went from Safeway to Homeland. When I lived near Pine & Memorial I used to shop at the Homeland at Pine & Sheridan, the Warehouse Market at Independence & Sheridan, and then there was another discount grocer on Admiral where Conn's/Dollar Tree/Planet Fitness is now. Homeland was the cleanest of the three and Warehouse Market and the other one always seemed to have stuff that was expired or near expiration date.


Growing up my mom grocery shopped at Oertle's, Safeway at Boman Acres and the store that later turned into Casa Bonita. I remember Katz that became Skagg's then Skagg's Alpha Beta, Jewell Osco, Skagg's Albertson's and then just Albertson's. When they built the one at 21st & Memorial mom started shopping there and McCartney's at I-44 & Memorial.

It will be interesting to see what happens, since isn't today a deadline of sorts for the PAC Project?

[Tulsan]

Well, this is over for now.  My guess is the grocery store piece continues to be the deal-breaker.  FC has done deals with many different municipalities that include grocer requirements, but it looks like some of these have stalled out in addition to Tulsa.  Obviously the one they did in Indianapolis with Whole Foods is a signature development.  I suppose they can always come back to the table - or the City can change its outlook.

[shavethewhales]

That sucks. Seems like we got the rug pulled on us at the last hour once again. Not that it's really anyone's fault. I fully believe that the city, PAC, and F&C wanted to make a good well rounded project but they forces that have existed over the past 5 years or so have been very difficult to say the least.

I'm not sure what makes sense now. Maybe they'll only develop half the lot? Build a hotel on top of a parking garage and wait for the tides to change so a grocer can come in for the rest later on?

[ComeOnBenjals]

What a colossal disappointment. I can't believe no grocer was willing to commit. Can't wait to look at this parking crater for the next 25 years.

[Red Arrow]

I don't feel I have a lack of grocery stores to choose from. We mostly shop at Reasor's and Target, but within about a 10 minute drive we also have Walmart, Sprouts, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Aldi, Sam's, Costco, and various Asian and Hispanic markets to choose from. I don't know Winco. There's also Warehouse Market chain, but I don't know of one close to me.

Winco is a warehouse style grocery store with a LOT of grocery selections. Winco is at 71st & Memorial southwest corner with Sunshine Furniture and Ross Dress for Less.  No membership is required. I might go there more often when the road work at the Creek Tpk and Memorial is done.

[SXSW]

Downtown Denver, which had thousands more residents than DT Tulsa, only opened their first downtown grocery store 10 years ago.  It's definitely not an easy process.  I think if Reasor's had stayed on board the project would be nearing completion if not already finished.  I think it's still the best location for that type of project downtown.

[Red Arrow]

Someone knows why the downtown grocery store is a no-go.  If that information was made public, maybe something could be done to correct it.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I'm really curious as to what there is about this project that no grocer wants to be a part of. I seriously doubt shrink/theft is the issue, there is just something more to this. It does make me wonder if what ever it is was the reason Reasor's pulled out and not because of the acquisition of Reasor's.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Winco is a warehouse style grocery store with a LOT of grocery selections. Winco is at 71st & Memorial southwest corner with Sunshine Furniture and Ross Dress for Less.  No membership is required. I might go there more often when the road work at the Creek Tpk and Memorial is done.

I shop at WinCo from time to time especially when I was working graveyard, I could shop with ease at 4:30 AM on my way home from work.

I know some people who won't shop there because they don't take credit cards but that's where some of their savings come from.

[Red Arrow]

I shop at WinCo from time to time...
I know some people who won't shop there because they don't take credit cards but that's where some of their savings come from.

I'm old school. I pay cash for groceries and things I don't care to keep an itemized record about.  I don't want to put a bag of chips on my credit card.