Rhymes with "Stitt"

[whoatown]

What does that have to do with "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that"?

Interesting brief history:
https://www.labroots.com/trending/microbiology/4928/variolation-vaccination

Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine.  It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years.  So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.

[tulsabug]

Just saying that abortions for the more recent vaccines probably came from more recent abortions.  Eventually would run out if they keep making vaccines all this time.

Wrong. You completely misunderstand how fetal stem cell lines work and are making false assumptions based on those misunderstandings.

From Dr. James Lawler - Infectious Disease Expert (board certified - not some dude from youtube trying to up his view count by spouting BS) https://www.nebraskamed.com/doctors/james-v-lawler - you're welcome to call him - his number is on that page. As a side-note - he's also a practicing Catholic.

Here's the article link - https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

"Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from abortions in the 1970s and 1980s. 

Those individual cells from the 1970s and 1980s have since multiplied into many new cells over the past four or five decades, creating the fetal cell lines I mentioned above. Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus.

Vaccine makers may use these fetal cell lines during the following two phases: 

Research and development
Production and manufacturing 
When it comes to the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, fetal cell line HEK 293 was used during the research and development phase. All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. Using fetal cell lines to test the effectiveness and safety of medications is common practice, because they provide a consistent and well-documented standard.

For the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, fetal cell lines were used in the production and manufacturing stage. To make the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, scientists infect PER.C6 fetal cell lines to grow the adenovirus vector. (Learn more about how viral vector vaccines work.) All PER.C6 cells used to manufacture the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are descended from tissue taken from a 1985 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. This cell line is used because it is a well-studied industry standard for safe and reliable production of viral vector vaccines."

[Red Arrow]

Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine.  It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years.  So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.

So you are not going to (cannot?) answer the question about "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that".  Who is saying that?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[whoatown]

So you are not going to (cannot?) answer the question about "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that".  Who is saying that?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Going back to Pasteur and even farther?  That's not ancient?  Pasteur conducted an experiment.  Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today?  There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective.  But only vaccines?  What are you expecting to say?  Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines? 

[patric]

Ok but if they caught it and survived what would taking the vaccine now prevent?  

People who have had a "hybrid" exposure to the virus. Specifically, they were infected with the coronavirus in 2020 and then immunized with mRNA vaccines this year. "Those people have amazing responses to the vaccine," says virologist Theodora Hatziioannou at Rockefeller University, who also helped lead several of the studies.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

[swake]

Going back to Pasteur and even farther?  That's not ancient?  Pasteur conducted an experiment.  Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today?  There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective.  But only vaccines?  What are you expecting to say?  Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines? 

More effective like bleach? Horse dewormer?

I'm just asking questions here.

[Red Arrow]

Going back to Pasteur and even farther?  That's not ancient?  Pasteur conducted an experiment.  Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today?  There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective.  But only vaccines?  What are you expecting to say?  Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines? 

I am expecting you to identify who "some" is/are. ("Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that".)

Human biology hasn't changed much since Pasteur.  Masks and social distancing seem to help prevent the spread of Covid-19 type diseases.  Unfortunately, requiring people to wear a mask infringes on their right to infect other people.  Mosquito control seems to help control malaria although malaria is still a BIG seasonal problem in some parts of Africa.  Treating a disease that usually does not result in dire consequences is probably a reasonable choice.  Preventing the spread of a disastrous disease like Covid-19 with an effective vaccination also seems like a reasonable choice.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Who are these people getting vaccinated who are telling others not to get vaccinated?  I would think if they were getting vaccinated,  they'd be encouraging others to get vaccinated, while those who decide not to are advising others to not get the vaccine?  

You would think that....but then you would be wrong.

Most of the Russian news mouthpieces at Fake Fox News are doing exactly that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Going back to Pasteur and even farther?  That's not ancient?  Pasteur conducted an experiment.  Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today?  There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective.  But only vaccines?  What are you expecting to say?  Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines?  

You keep spewing this circular logic nonsense without ever answering a question - there have been several like you here in the past.  You are trying to put words into peoples mouths at best.  At worst this garbage is an attempt to sow doubt about vaccines and current medical care in general.  

Just for everyone else out there with an actual thought process, medical care has, in general, followed the latest science available at the time.  Like when they used leaches for bleeding people - that got way out of hand and way beyond the limits of its actual helpfulness, and we have come full circle to using the again for certain type of injuries.  Since there is a valid place for that treatment!  That is a classic case of when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


Give an example of better solution to any of the major viral, some of the bacterial, and even one of the parasite, diseases of the last few hundred or few thousand years.   While we are waiting the next few thousand years to get an answer from you, people can and should use the REAL tools available today.


And one quote in particular of yours, "There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective." shows that you probably are getting ready to start making mewling sounds about insecticide treatments.  Or even injecting bleach like the Russian Minion did.   If you have a better treatment, why are you withholding from the world??   Millions have already died without covid vaccines, and yet, here you sit just watching and letting it continue....

[heironymouspasparagus]

Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine.  It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years.  So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.

None of which were very good.   And many are no longer effective due to resistance parasites.   But one was pushed by Trump as cure for covid.  Which it is not.


Side note;  I went to Venezuela and a friend went to Indonesia at the same time for the company we worked for.  Both got Chloroquine to take as preventative.  He caught malaria, I did not.  I was watching tv in the hotel one night in El Tigre and the big news lead was about the malaria epidemic they were experiencing at the time.  I was lucky.  And no, you do not want to take Chloroquine if you don't have to.  Makes you sick the entire time and several days after.   Nasty stuff.  

[whoatown]

None of which were very good.   And many are no longer effective due to resistance parasites.   But one was pushed by Trump as cure for covid.  Which it is not.


Side note;  I went to Venezuela and a friend went to Indonesia at the same time for the company we worked for.  Both got Chloroquine to take as preventative.  He caught malaria, I did not.  I was watching tv in the hotel one night in El Tigre and the big news lead was about the malaria epidemic they were experiencing at the time.  I was lucky.  And no, you do not want to take Chloroquine if you don't have to.  Makes you sick the entire time and several days after.   Nasty stuff.  

So much in the same way that bacteria has now become super bugs as they are resistant to antibiotic (typically overuse and not just from humans taking medicines, they pasteurize and antibiotic many foods as well).  So herein the same issue abounds from the inoculation with the vaccines to the antibacterial (both good and bad bacteria) of antibiotics.  Different facets of disease if you will, having similar problems when it comes to diminishing law of returns.  So when these traditional methods no longer work they have to find something else to work with.  Some of these treatments may leave traces or have chemical memories that may affect further treatment in other ways.  Even taking samples of blood work or for donations tends to make using those capillaries later less effective and a new vein has to be used to draw blood. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

So much in the same way that bacteria has now become super bugs as they are resistant to antibiotic (typically overuse and not just from humans taking medicines, they pasteurize and antibiotic many foods as well).  So herein the same issue abounds from the inoculation with the vaccines to the antibacterial (both good and bad bacteria) of antibiotics.  Different facets of disease if you will, having similar problems when it comes to diminishing law of returns.  So when these traditional methods no longer work they have to find something else to work with.  Some of these treatments may leave traces or have chemical memories that may affect further treatment in other ways.  Even taking samples of blood work or for donations tends to make using those capillaries later less effective and a new vein has to be used to draw blood. 

Keep trying.  Your distortion, dissemination, and attempts to muddy the water are inane.   Hypothetical gobble-dy-gook versus real world results happening today.

[patric]

Like William said, vaccines are already mandated in the military - currently it's about 17 of them. And not following a direct order is how you get kicked out of the military without benefits and they've already said that doing so isn't off the table in this regard. So why is a mandate on this vaccine a problem and not any of the other ones? And we're only talking about the military and military contractors - not the population at large.

Oklahoma Guard commander defends rejecting vaccine mandate as Pentagon warns troops who refuse

The Oklahoma National Guard's commanding general Wednesday defended his directive countermanding federal requirements that all U.S. military personnel be vaccinated against the coronavirus, telling troops in a private town hall event that he was following orders from the state's Republican governor and meant no disrespect to his superiors at the Pentagon.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, speaking to several dozen members of the Oklahoma National Guard in Oklahoma City, cast himself as an apolitical leader bound by law to answer to Gov. Kevin Stitt (R), who fired the state's previous National Guard commander last week and ordered Mancino the next day to issue a policy allowing members to avoid the vaccine.

The extraordinary move by Stitt has prompted interest among multiple governors and National Guard commanders to explore similar policies in their states, Oklahoma officials said, while leaving the Biden administration with little recourse but to hold individual service members accountable for refusing lawful orders that their immediate chain of command has disavowed.

"I did not initiate a civilian-military crisis just because I thought it was cool, right?" Mancino said, according to a recording of his remarks obtained by The Washington Post and later confirmed by the general in an interview.

Mancino said during the town hall that he had consulted with National Guard lawyers and appeared to point out a path for the Pentagon if it wishes to assert its authority, saying that if he is placed on federal orders, he will carry out the vaccination mandate, which is a centerpiece of President Biden's strategy for bringing the pandemic under control. The general showed deference to Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in his remarks, noting that the two had served together in Afghanistan and joking that the secretary is "a very big individual who can crush me like a bug with his hands."

Mancino is vaccinated and encourages his troops to get vaccinated if they want, he said in the interview after his town hall remarks. "Where we differ," he added, speaking about the Pentagon directive, "is my governor said it's a personal choice on whether you do."

Pentagon officials said Wednesday that they have the authority to require coronavirus vaccination for National Guard personnel and that continued refusal would put thousands of military careers in jeopardy, in the administration's sharpest response yet to the unprecedented bid by a subordinate command to undermine unambiguous orders from the U.S. military's senior-most civilian authority.

"We are not aware of any governor attempting to prohibit members from receiving the vaccine, and don't see this as placing any individual member in conflict with state authorities," Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby said in a statement. "Failure to receive the vaccine may jeopardize an individual member's status in the National Guard."

Kirby did not address questions seeking clarity as to how the Defense Department planned to inform the roughly 8,200 members of the Oklahoma National Guard that it should ignore Mancino's policy and instead comply with the federal directive to get vaccinated.

Stitt has asked Austin to exempt Oklahoma Guard personnel from the requirement. Austin gave a news conference at the Pentagon on Wednesday but fielded no questions about the matter.

Kirby in his statement said that governors "may not relieve individual members of the Guard from their obligation to comply with this valid medical readiness requirement." Austin has not yet responded to the request, the governor's office said.

A defense official who discussed the dilemma in a conference call with reporters would not disclose whether the Pentagon would seek to reprimand commanders who refuse to enforce the order, which was issued by Austin in August. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon.

The secretaries of the Army and Air Force will work with Gen. Daniel Hokanson, who heads the National Guard Bureau, to address potential consequences for those who refuse orders, the official said, noting they would take action on a "case-by-case basis."

The vaccination requirement has faced resistance within pockets of the military. While a majority of the active-duty force is fully vaccinated, thousands continue to hold out — and overall, far fewer National Guard personnel have chosen to comply.

Oklahoma's policy could be a road map for other GOP governors wishing to fight Biden's mandates. More than five National Guard commanders in other states have contacted officials in Oklahoma expressing interest in a similar policy, according to a senior military official in the state who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the issue's political sensitivity.

Multiple Republican governors also have spoken to Stitt about duplicating his initiative, said Carly Atchison, a spokeswoman. She did not have more information about which governors spoke to Stitt.

Oklahoma's new policy walks a line between a state's military orders, in which the governor acts as commander in chief for operations such as disaster relief, and federal military orders, in which National Guard members carry out missions under the president's command. In notifying personnel of the new policy, Mancino last week said they would be subject to the vaccine requirement if activated for a federally mandated assignment, such as an overseas deployment.

It is unclear how Pentagon officials will navigate the politically volatile issue, though one potential impediment to a swift resolution is the long time frame Army officials established for Guard members to comply with the mandate. About 54 percent of Army Guard members in the state — roughly 3,200 soldiers — have not received any dose of the vaccine, according to state data. But their deadline to be fully vaccinated is in June.

In contrast, Air National Guard members must be fully vaccinated by Dec. 12, and nearly 89 percent of the state's airmen have already complied.

The National Guard has absorbed a disproportionate share of the 75 deaths among military personnel infected with the coronavirus. National Guard members account for 28 percent of all covid-19-related deaths in the military, but they constitute only about 19 percent of the entire armed forces. The Army National Guard has the highest death toll across the services, according to Pentagon data.

In his town hall in Oklahoma City, Mancino expressed frustration with how he has been portrayed and asked at the outset of his remarks if any journalists were in the room. He pointed specifically to comments by MSNBC commentator Rachel Maddow, who noted on her show Monday that both the Oklahoma National Guard and the Defense Department are armed and asked, "If both the Oklahoma National Guard and the Defense Department refuse to back down on this, how does this resolve?"

Mancino said that Maddow "knows better" than to imply "that I'm the next Robert E. Lee, and that I'm instigating a civil war," referencing the Confederate military leader. If placed under federal statutes, Mancino said, he would apologize to Stitt and carry out the Biden administration's orders.

"Does that make me two-faced? Does that make me evil? No," Mancino said. "It makes me a professional military officer. I don't have political opinions. I execute orders."

Mancino took questions from National Guard troops, including one who asked if the general was aware that some under his command felt coerced to get the vaccine.

"I am aware of it," Mancino responded. "I will say this: Up until the point I issued my order, you were under a lawful order to take that vaccine."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/11/17/vaccine-mandate-oklahoma-national-guard/

[whoatown]

Keep trying.  Your distortion, dissemination, and attempts to muddy the water are inane.   Hypothetical gobble-dy-gook versus real world results happening today.

Are vaccines the only solution you personally will accept?  It seems like vaccines are the only answer you will accept.

[Red Arrow]

Are vaccines the only solution you personally will accept?  It seems like vaccines are the only answer you will accept.

It appears you are willing to try anything other than a vaccine, including things known to be harmful or at best don't work.