Terrible New Turkey Mountain Development

[LandArchPoke]

Figured this was only a matter of time but looks like REI has found a new home and only way to top it off would be to be even more destructive than the original plan down the street.

Can't wait to see how much the City of Tulsa is going to give in incentives for this POS development.

Because what we really need is another Chipotle, Dutch Brothers, Sherwin Williams - not like we don't already have dozens - in spectacular car centric form next to our greatest wilderness asset. Will completely chop off the entire hillside on that corner of Elwood and 71st.

[shavethewhales]

This isn't Turkey Mountain, it's Tulsa Hills. Turkey Mtn is NE of all that. It's not surprising at all that the rest of this space will be developed. If they cross S. Elwood to the NE that would be a scandal, but that's not going to happen with how things are protected at the moment.

It's still a terrible development just because it's a car-centered parking-crater asphalt wasteland, but it won't affect Turkey Mountain much other than adding more traffic and trash blow-off near it. Developers should be required to answer "how would a person get here without using a car?" as part of the building permit process. Can't believe they aren't going to have a trail connection for REI at least next to one of the busiest trails and outdoor rec areas in the city.

[SXSW]

Where is the development group based?  The idea of an REI next to Turkey Mtn is intriguing if they can figure out a way to integrate into a new trail that connects to the future "water tank trails" on the west side of Elwood.  

[LandArchPoke]

This isn't Turkey Mountain, it's Tulsa Hills. Turkey Mtn is NE of all that. It's not surprising at all that the rest of this space will be developed. If they cross S. Elwood to the NE that would be a scandal, but that's not going to happen with how things are protected at the moment.

It's still a terrible development just because it's a car-centered parking-crater asphalt wasteland, but it won't affect Turkey Mountain much other than adding more traffic and trash blow-off near it. Developers should be required to answer "how would a person get here without using a car?" as part of the building permit process. Can't believe they aren't going to have a trail connection for REI at least next to one of the busiest trails and outdoor rec areas in the city.

Well it's as much "Turkey Mountain" as the outlet mall proposal was prior to people speaking up about it.

Yes, it's not on park land but this corner is still the entry way into the park area - it's closer to Turkey Mountain than Tulsa Hills.

I knew this corner would be developed I just didn't think they'd do it so horrifically bad. I don't understand for as much as it'll cost to level the terrain (this is far from a flat site) and the amount of vegetation that'll have to be cleared how they can make this type of development feasible on this lot unless the city is kicking in $$$.

If they are, my guess is it's all happening behind closed doors because I knew they want to talk about how they were able to 'bring REI' to Tulsa, Partner Tulsa & the Mayors office need their feet held to the fire over how absurdly stupid it is to subsidize this type of development next to the park.

________________

SXSW, it's basically just to the left of where the label 'Bike Park' is - where all the trees are at in the aerial just outside the boundary area.


Why we don't have design standards for development on parcels surrounding the park area is just mind blowing dumb as usual from the city. This whole area should be grouped into the River overlay and given some standards to stop stuff like this from happening.

[tulsabug]

Figured this was only a matter of time but looks like REI has found a new home and only way to top it off would be to be even more destructive than the original plan down the street.

Can't wait to see how much the City of Tulsa is going to give in incentives for this POS development.

Because what we really need is another Chipotle, Dutch Brothers, Sherwin Williams - not like we don't already have dozens

It is frustrating that it's always the same large chain shops over and over and over again. Of course, even the small shops that fill up strip malls are the same thing over and over and over again. I'm not sure how many nail salons, massage parlors, cell phone repair places, and dispensaries the world needs. It seems like there are less and less interesting niche stores and more and more boring redundant ones.

[TheArtist]

It is frustrating that it's always the same large chain shops over and over and over again. Of course, even the small shops that fill up strip malls are the same thing over and over and over again. I'm not sure how many nail salons, massage parlors, cell phone repair places, and dispensaries the world needs. It seems like there are less and less interesting niche stores and more and more boring redundant ones.

Interesting you say that. Looks like our "interesting" store (DECOPOLIS) will have Nov. sales of about $20,000 Less than the same month last year. A surprising turn as most months sales so far this year were above last. Black Friday our sales were a little above last years, but Small Business Saturday's sales were half! (a neighboring store had similar numbers, which made me feel a little better hoping that it wasn't just me making some big advertising/product purchasing errors or something) Still ahead for the year, but wow, kinda worried about December as that month can be a sizable proportion of yearly sales.  

[LandArchPoke]

It is frustrating that it's always the same large chain shops over and over and over again. Of course, even the small shops that fill up strip malls are the same thing over and over and over again. I'm not sure how many nail salons, massage parlors, cell phone repair places, and dispensaries the world needs. It seems like there are less and less interesting niche stores and more and more boring redundant ones.

A large part of it is driven by the built environment, what is being built now is not affordable for many small local businesses. Like the Chipotle building likely has a lease rate of $30-$50 per sq ft NNN. Part of it is expensive land, small buildings, too much parking lot, and expensive new construction.

There's just not a lot of areas in Tulsa that have a consistent streetscape with older building stock that is prime for smaller local businesses to fill in (much like Brookside/Cherry Street way back in the day). Kendall Whitter and 11th have some but for the most part many areas are far too fragmented to get a good density of retailers. It's natural to see areas start out local and transition to national tenants like Brookside/Cherry Street.

Our zoning code is still not friendly enough to small scale infill. In order for it to happen on Cherry Street you're seeing much of the housing being bought and knocked down for parking. 11th Street I think you'll eventually see more infill come in but it will happen just like Cherry Street where much of the housing that is now right up on the back of some buildings will be bought, cleared out, and turned into parking. When you're having to buy multiple houses to be able to build a surface parking lot that adds a significant amount of rent needed to cover that. That's a big reason why most of the newer stuff on Cherry Street is pushing $30 + per sq ft

I think the Planitulsa update is out for comment now. I would encourage anyone who has time to push in the public comments that we need to address small scale infill and parking requirements.

The CBD has no parking requirements and we aren't seeing a catastrophic parking situation - what it's done is created the need to look at areas for common parking. The WPX building and the new infill by Pivot will act as common parking for surrounding properties and the overall neighborhood. That is a good thing. Same can be said with the Main Street garage - it has allowed for the Mayo 420 building, Palace, and Reunion, plus other residential conversions around it to not build any new parking. I don't think people understand how rare that is, especially for a city Tulsa's size. Most downtown areas in other cities still have parking requirements. It's really freed up developers to active a lot of buildings that would never have happened if we didn't have no parking requirements downtown.

If we are investing public $$ in BRT along 11th and Peoria, any lot that fronts those lines should have no parking requirements or at the very least have a cap, where if you build over 100 units or say 100,000 sq ft in commercial space then you are required to provide parking for the additional units or sq ft above that. 

[LandArchPoke]

Oh and SXSW, the development group I'm not sure - the ownership of the land is local.

Questar Corporation (B2 Investments is the LLC holding name) - they're located at 61st & Yale. I'm not entirely sure if it's just people within that office who own it and are using that address or if Questar would be the developer. I believe it's an oil & gas firm. So highly likely there's a developer who has it under contract and the condition for it to sell is for them to finalize leases, etc. or the ownership group has contracted with a fee developer to lease it/build it and then they'll sell it off after completion since this will all mostly be NNN investment offerings.  

__________

What drives me crazy too is companies like REI like to talk sustainability, etc. all while doing the most damage possible with sh*t development. Especially right next to public park land, just incredible.

[Red Arrow]

Well it's as much "Turkey Mountain" as the outlet mall proposal was prior to people speaking up about it.

Yes, it's not on park land but this corner is still the entry way into the park area - it's closer to Turkey Mountain than Tulsa Hills.

SXSW, it's basically just to the left of where the label 'Bike Park' is - where all the trees are at in the aerial just outside the boundary area.

Why we don't have design standards for development on parcels surrounding the park area is just mind blowing dumb as usual from the city. This whole area should be grouped into the River overlay and given some standards to stop stuff like this from happening.

I agree that the proposed development sucks but development next to park land is not unheard of:
https://goo.gl/maps/UMyuvHqRDQo8TtFr8

[Red Arrow]

This isn't Turkey Mountain, it's Tulsa Hills. Turkey Mtn is NE of all that. It's not surprising at all that the rest of this space will be developed. If they cross S. Elwood to the NE that would be a scandal, but that's not going to happen with how things are protected at the moment.

It's still a terrible development just because it's a car-centered parking-crater asphalt wasteland, but it won't affect Turkey Mountain much other than adding more traffic and trash blow-off near it. Developers should be required to answer "how would a person get here without using a car?" as part of the building permit process. Can't believe they aren't going to have a trail connection for REI at least next to one of the busiest trails and outdoor rec areas in the city.

On a possible up-side, there will be more parking for folks wanting to use the park.  I can't imagine the folks just north of the development will be too thrilled though.

https://goo.gl/maps/opSuSHpw3Djm3eZe6

[LandArchPoke]

I agree that the proposed development sucks but development next to park land is not unheard of:
https://goo.gl/maps/UMyuvHqRDQo8TtFr8

For sure and just want to clarify I'm opposed to development on this lot. I think commercial development next to Turkey Mountain would be great but not as it is planned now. That's why I wish we had design standards, etc. for this area. It's one of Tulsa's best assets.

This corner had an opportunity to be something much, much better. Mostly drive-thrus are not a way to encourage trail users and others to stick around and spend money. Turkey Mountain is something that does draw in vistors and could bring in even more. A thoughtful mixed-use development would a small parking garage would be much better and even a small hotel geared towards mountain bikers. Do something that would make someone want to spend the night or at very least spend the day there.

Something that would bring the trails into the site versus and encourage people who are at the park to want to stick around and spend money.

For this site I think how a lot of developments around ski resorts could be applied here and be complimentary to the trail users and natural terrain of the site. You could easily get a small hotel, couple hundred apartments, and ground floor retail on this site.





^ Imagine the 71st and Elwood corner looking more like that with REI and other retail tenants on the ground floor and a parking structure behind the buildings. Then the back end of the lot you could build out more trails, etc.

This is just a huge wasted opportunity and is the prime gateway to Turkey Mountain.

[SXSW]

Something like South Yard in Fayetteville would be awesome here.  It integrates apartments with local retail next to the trail system.  Specialized REG does great work in NWA. 

[SXSW]

Im thinking a brewery would kill it in this location with people stopping for beers after rides/hikes.  If you've been to New Terrain in Golden they have a similar setup in an industrial park next to the Table Mesa trails.

[D-TownTulsan]

Brewery would be awesome.

I went up to visit my dad for Thanksgiving and overall had a good time visiting all the breweries. He lives around 71st and Memorial so Mcnellie's South is our go to. Selfishly here needs to be more bars/breweries/gastropubs, etc in South Tulsa. An "Elgin Park South" would do really well I think.

Seems like the city just keeps whiffing on new development along that whole 71st corridor. My hope is that all these available lots would be turned into something cool, but there is something in the air where "Parking lot comes first" resulting in a tiny building with some product that does not add or benefit the area whatsoever. Doesn't help that our streets are Atlanta freeway-sized wide. I understand south Tulsa wasn't geared to be exactly pedestrian friendly but man it makes the area depressing to look at, especially coming from Brookside or cherry st. or the pearl.

I was shocked by the amount of new carwashes there are everywhere! Goodness gracious no city needs that many drive-thru car washes that close to each other. Even here in Dallas where everyone drives their brand new Mercedes, we don't come close to that many car washes.

The same sentiment goes to the amount of dumpy weed shops all over the place, with empty parking lots. Do these things really last? I don't mind the "nice" looking ones, but the quantity of these just seems to be overkill.

I still love coming up to visit, but would also love to see some development practices make a u-turn

[tulsabug]

Interesting you say that. Looks like our "interesting" store (DECOPOLIS) will have Nov. sales of about $20,000 Less than the same month last year. A surprising turn as most months sales so far this year were above last. Black Friday our sales were a little above last years, but Small Business Saturday's sales were half! (a neighboring store had similar numbers, which made me feel a little better hoping that it wasn't just me making some big advertising/product purchasing errors or something) Still ahead for the year, but wow, kinda worried about December as that month can be a sizable proportion of yearly sales.  

Interesting indeed! There needs to be more stores like yours which is my point. I think nail salons, cell phone places, dispensaries, and coffee shops account for 50% of the stores in town which is an absurd amount of overlap. Same shiat, different strip mall. It's like the shopping center at 21st and Yale. It needs something - anything - interesting in it. For a while it seemed like half the stuff was cell phone stores - a bunch of those left and nothing has taken over their locations. Really terrible property management around there isn't helping.

Our November was about the same as last November. Overall, we're also up this year however that could be the inflation. All that being said, we only do about half of our sales locally (Oklahoma shoppers are terribly inconsistent - I've never counted on them for anything) and the rest is online and those are staying consistent.  Our big issue this year has been a lot of best-selling items have been unavailable all year. I'm not doubting we lost 20% of our total sales just because we didn't have the stuff available.