Amtrak

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Transport_Oklahoma

AZBADPUPPY,

This isn't about profits.  Its going to require Oklahoma state government to spend money.  Just like is done for the OKC service, like Missouri is doing for its service, and California, and Illinois, and so forth.

Its about moving people.  It is about preparing for a time when people will wax nostalgic for 2006's "cheap" gas.  Its about quality of life.  Its about generating activity around cbd-based train stations.

With each successive improvement, a level of support will develop for the next level of investment.  

At some point, in the busiest corridors, there may be an opportunity for private sector operators to operate at profit if they don't have to pay for the full cost of the track (kind of like truckers and the airlines).

oklahomarail.org

I am not disagreeing with you- in theory. What the problem right now as I stated before is the lack of support from the government and from the majority of Americans to have a decent rail system. You mentioned the airlines- they received over 11 billion dollars in bailout money after 9/11. Amtrak- not one penny.

Interstate rail travel is dying because we as a country have decided it is not important enough to support. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

quote: Interstate rail travel is dying because we as a country have decided it is not important enough to support. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I am sorry.  Your comment just doesn't fit the facts.

Amtrak ridership increased in eight of the last nine years.  The Fiscal 2005 level of 25.4 million is up 29% from 1996.

Similarly, the yield (average revenue per passenger mile) rose in ten of the last eleven years, with the FY 2005 level up 65% from the 1994 level.  Amtrak is not "buying" ridership with cheap fares.

Long distance trains are well-used.  They accounted for 47% of Amtrak's passenger-miles last year (a passenger-mile is one passenger carried one mile).  The average long distance train carried 356 passengers per trip.  

After dropping the first couple of years, ridership on the OKC-FTW service has been growing each year since 2002.

New services are funded and will happen over the next 6-36 months in Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington state.  

There is $400 million for intercity passenger rail in "The Governator's" bond issue in California.  

Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Maine, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, and Virginia all are at various stages of planning for additional intercity trains.  And New Mexico will be inaugurating about 40 miles of service from Belen to ABQ to Bernallilo in 3 weeks.

Oklahoma peak oil/transportation discussion group

//www.oklahomarail.org

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Transport_Oklahoma

quote: Interstate rail travel is dying because we as a country have decided it is not important enough to support. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I am sorry.  Your comment just doesn't fit the facts.

Amtrak ridership increased in eight of the last nine years.  The Fiscal 2005 level of 25.4 million is up 29% from 1996.

Similarly, the yield (average revenue per passenger mile) rose in ten of the last eleven years, with the FY 2005 level up 65% from the 1994 level.  Amtrak is not "buying" ridership with cheap fares.

Long distance trains are well-used.  They accounted for 47% of Amtrak's passenger-miles last year (a passenger-mile is one passenger carried one mile).  The average long distance train carried 356 passengers per trip.  

After dropping the first couple of years, ridership on the OKC-FTW service has been growing each year since 2002.

New services are funded and will happen over the next 6-36 months in Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington state.  

There is $400 million for intercity passenger rail in "The Governator's" bond issue in California.  

Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Maine, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, and Virginia all are at various stages of planning for additional intercity trains.  And New Mexico will be inaugurating about 40 miles of service from Belen to ABQ to Bernallilo in 3 weeks.

Oklahoma peak oil/transportation discussion group

//www.oklahomarail.org

Amtrak's ridership would have to multiply several times before it is considered successful, and that will not happen because of the poor management and lack of services.

Also, I was referring specifically to Amtrak and interstate rail, not intercity rail, or light rail, and the federal governments role, not individual states. The Bush administration last year tried to cut all funding which would effectively shut Amtrak down completely, except for maybe its Northeast corridor routes.  

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=2006429&page=1

[sportyart]

About 5 years ago I took the train from OKC down to San Antonio. The ride down to Fort Worth (Not Dallas because the Heartland Flyer does NOT go through Dallas) was for the most part pretty nice. The rail goes through some places where cars can't like the Arbuckle "Mountains". The only problems that I had on the trip were some of the other passengers. It's like being on a big bus if anything for me to compare it too. When we got to the Fort Worth terminal, we were supposed to have only a 3 hour layover until we caught the Texas Eagle. During that 3 hour layover, we decided to spend the time looking around downtown Fort Worth, and having lunch at the stockyards. This was right after the tornado had hit downtown, and so not a lot was open, but it was nice walking around in a downtown environment. That layover turned into 4, then 5, then 6, then 7, and then 8 hour layover. All this due to "heat causing the rails to expand" causing the train to travel slower. We had originaly booked coach passage on the Texas Eagle, but decided to upgrade to sleeper sense we were going to be arriving in San Antonio at 2 in the morning. The way back was a lot easier, as we both had meeting back in Tulsa, took a flight so missed the delays of expanding rails.

Even though my experience on rail travel in Texas was slightly tainted, I decided to take the train from Seattle while I was there on business to Vancouver for a short personal vacation. The only difficulty I had the whole time was just trying to find the rail station. But once found it was simple to drop of my luggage, wait in the terminal, and get aboard. The rail service was wonderful, the views were spectacular, and really enjoyed the trip. It was worth it!

[PonderInc]

I have traveled on (4 continents) by car, airplane, seaplane, motor boat, sailboat, ferry, train, horse, donkey, elephant, rubber raft, hot air balloon, bicycle, tuk-tuk, motorcycle, helicopter, city bus, chicken bus, monorail, 18-wheeler, and in the bed of an El Camino.  In my opinion NOTHING beats rail travel for overall comfort.  You have lots of space, you can get up and walk around (try that in your Chevy Suburban or a 737), you won't get motion sickness, there are dining cars, and you can sleep in a bed overnight.

Trains are the most luxurious way to go (unless, I suppose, you can afford a private jet).  If more people would try it (especially in countries where it's well-funded and efficient) they would love it and would never want to travel any other way.  

And don't even get me started on people who complain about costs/subsidies of rail.  We just allocated most of our 3rd penny sales tax money to road projects.  Nationally, we spend billions on city streets, highways and bridges every year w/o batting an eye.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I have traveled on (4 continents) by car, airplane, seaplane, motor boat, sailboat, ferry, train, horse, donkey, elephant, rubber raft, hot air balloon, bicycle, tuk-tuk, motorcycle, helicopter, city bus, chicken bus, monorail, 18-wheeler, and in the bed of an El Camino.  In my opinion NOTHING beats rail travel for overall comfort.  You have lots of space, you can get up and walk around (try that in your Chevy Suburban or a 737), you won't get motion sickness, there are dining cars, and you can sleep in a bed overnight.

Trains are the most luxurious way to go (unless, I suppose, you can afford a private jet).  If more people would try it (especially in countries where it's well-funded and efficient) they would love it and would never want to travel any other way.  

And don't even get me started on people who complain about costs/subsidies of rail.  We just allocated most of our 3rd penny sales tax money to road projects.  Nationally, we spend billions on city streets, highways and bridges every year w/o batting an eye.

Trains are absolutely the best way to go- in countries where coverage is good and service is efficient & the govt and people actually support it and use it.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

In my opinion NOTHING beats rail travel for overall comfort.  You have lots of space, you can get up and walk around (try that in your Chevy Suburban or a 737), you won't get motion sickness, there are dining cars, and you can sleep in a bed overnight.

Trains are the most luxurious way to go (unless, I suppose, you can afford a private jet).  If more people would try it (especially in countries where it's well-funded and efficient) they would love it and would never want to travel any other way.  

And don't even get me started on people who complain about costs/subsidies of rail.  We just allocated most of our 3rd penny sales tax money to road projects.  Nationally, we spend billions on city streets, highways and bridges every year w/o batting an eye.

Government and private business has spent years and billions of dollars promoting private transportation (cars) at the expense of efficient mass transit (trains, trolleys, interurban rail) which is probably the main reason we are so dependent on foreign oil today.  If federal and state governments were half-way concerned about lowering consumption of foreign oil, they would triple or quadruple gasoline & diesel taxes and give the money to upgrade and expand rail.  I guess we have just made our bed so we have to lie in it, at least for the time being.

The only time I have ever taken AMTRAK was on the line from DC to NYC, and that is mostly just big "cattle cars" hauling students and business travelers.  In the past 5 years, has anyone taken the train for a long-haul pleasure trip, say from Chicago to LA, or NYC to Miami, with private compartment sleeping/bathing accommodations?  How were the compartments, as to cleanliness and good service?  I know private accommodations on AMTRAK are not cheap, but this is something I have always wanted to do and at the rate the government is funding AMTRAK, this option may not be available in the future.

[sportyart]

I think this would the way to go with a new rail line through oklahoma:

[sportyart]

Whats the cost per mile to put in passanger rail, and whats the cost per mile to put in high speed rail?

[sportyart]

Here are the most likely rails to be used for the train traffic. I personal think it would be a good idea to go through Neosho then through Joplin. Joplin has about three times more people 46,830, while Neosho has 10,961, but its only 23 miles from each other. The Neosho rout would be a lot shorter ride for those coming too and going from much larger cities.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

quote: The only time I have ever taken AMTRAK was on the line from DC to NYC, and that is mostly just big "cattle cars" hauling students and business travelers. In the past 5 years, has anyone taken the train for a long-haul pleasure trip, say from Chicago to LA, or NYC to Miami, with private compartment sleeping/bathing accommodations? How were the compartments, as to cleanliness and good service? I know private accommodations on AMTRAK are not cheap, but this is something I have always wanted to do and at the rate the government is funding AMTRAK, this option may not be available in the future.  

I travel at least a thousand miles a year on Amtrak and am a member of their frequent traveler program.  I can't ever recall any Amtrak experience being like a "cattle car".  Granted some of the equipment is getting tired and customer service is uneven, but mostly its an enjoyable way to get where you are going.  Coach seats on American trains are similar to domestic first class on an airline.  Wide 2 x 2 seats with foot rests.  Long hauls train seats have leg rests as well.  No center arm rest though and the 1970s design is pretty weak as far as lower lumbar support.  I suggest you bring a little pillow.  Sometimes these are provided on the longhauls.  The seating on the newer "California Cars" and ACELA EXPRESS in the northeast seems to have overcome these problems.  

If it is in your budget, getting a sleeper compartment is clearly the way to go for overnight trips.  You get meals included in the first class fare, a real bed, privacy when you want it, and a little more attention from the crew.  When you do want to socialize (and the train tends to stimulate that), go to the lounge or leave your sliding door and curtain open.  Also, dining car seating is "community".  This means the steward will have others join you at your table.  Its actually kind of fun that way.  I always just ask "So where are you headed?" and the conversation takes off from there.

Check with me off list if you want to know anything else.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

If this St. Louis-Springfield-Tulsa proposal gets going, it will have to route via Neosho.

The track through Joplin is 10-25 mph branch line status at best.  The route through Neosho is 50-60 for freight today.  With grade crossing protection upgrades and adjustments, a top speed of 79 should be achievable.  

Look at the bright side, it puts it that much closer to the booming northwest Arkansas region.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Tulsa World letter to the editor in favor of the Saint Louis-Springfield-Tulsa Amtrak route proposal

[brunoflipper]

i would be all over a train ride to saint louis and then on to chicago...   we go to colorado at least three times a year to go snow boarding/fishing... and every time i talk to my buddy in omaha, he brags about the overnight sleeper train ride they take with the whole famdamnily and how much "fun" the "actual trip" is...

[PonderInc]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

Again, the problem is that Amtrak is losing money at an alarming rate, and cannot afford to upgrade its trains, rails or services offered. Who is going to pay for these new high speed trains and the rails to run them on? The government, as well as the vast majority of Americans have already made it clear they are unwilling to pay for it.

The more Amtrak tries to cut back to try and save themselves, the more they keep losing. Amtrak needs to stop relying on government subsidies and focus on profit making before any progress will happen.

Also, Amtrak needs to let go of their long distance routes and focus on multiplying the trains and improving service on their short distance routes in order to compete with bus and air. Any new development in Amtrak should be done very carefully and in high density/highly traveled corridors.

Here's a great article by Christopher Ott about how everyone expects rail transport to pay for itself, but nobody mentions the enormous government subsidies given to airlines, the highway system, and automotive industries: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1112

Here are some exerpts: "The implication that Amtrak is exceptional in the transportation industry in its reliance on government subsidies, however, is troublesome--and ironic, given the recent well-publicized bailout for U.S. airlines. On top of $13 billion in federal aviation spending for fiscal year 2002, Congress approved a $15 billion package of airline aid within two weeks of September 11.

"...in the United States, few people realize that direct taxes on automobiles and gasoline barely cover two thirds of the cost of road building, maintenance, administration and safety.

"Additional social costs of car and air travel--including accidents, lost time, and loss of quality of life--are obvious to planners and economists, and are increasingly counted as a real drag on the economy. The social costs of car travel in 11 countries studied is nearly twice that of air travel and seven times that of trains.

"Stephen Goddard, in his 1994 book Getting There: The Epic Struggle Between Road and Rail in the American Century, found that hidden subsidies for drivers amount to well over $2 for every gallon of gasoline sold."