Towerview Apartments

[pmcalk]

For those who read the paper this morning, Mayor LaFortune has requested that part of the 3rd penny sales tax, yet to be approved, be set aside to purchase the property where Towerview Apartments sits, so that a hotel can be built.  The owner of Towerview wants to convert the building into upscale lofts, though he said he would look at the Mayor's offer.  Obviously, its close proximity to the new arena makes it an idea location for a hotel (makes you a bit suspicious of the paper's motivation when it began its several-part story of the buildings substandard living conditions, and its repeated references to the "dilapidated building").

I am not one to scream about the need for a smaller government, or to bemoan every penny tax, but this does seem unnecessary.

First, instead of building new hotels, why not give the money to rehabilitate the Mayo?  If the Mayo were returned to its original splendor, that would be enough to visit Tulsa, with or without an arena.  And the Mayo is not that far from the arena.  Apart from the Mayo, there are two other modern hotels nearby.

Second, if in addtion to the Mayo, the DoubleTree, and the AdamMark, another hotel is needed, why can't private development take care of that?  Why must the TDA buy it, and not the Hyatt, or the Marriott, or whatever?

Just my two cents.

[MichaelC]

That is interesting.  I wasn't very happy with the World stories a while back.  

I can't really vouch for the intentions of the Towerview's owners.  I don't know if it sold or not, but it was reported to be owned by some company out of Oregon.  And perhaps they've had a change of heart, but the Towerview was allowed to fall apart by its owners.  And now its shut down isn't it?

Early on, when the Arena model was first presented, they showed a map that had these potential blocks for development.  And a hotel was mentioned, and I've kind of assumed that it was one of the next natural step.  The Towerview, is on the block directly across Denver from the new Arena.  It was one of the primary blocks mentioned for future development.  

I don't particularly care for the World articles, I don't know if there is a historical reason why the Towerview should be saved, but that block is over 75% surface parking and is a prime location for development near the Arena.

[swake]

The mayor is a moron.

Why in the hell would any public money go to build a new "same as everywhere else" hotel when we have the Mayo? The proximity of the Mayo is good to the arena, and it IS unique. Public money if it is going to be used, should be used to preserve assets like the Mayo, if another "new" hotel beyond the Mayo one is needed, let private money pay for it.  

We have the DoubleTree right next to the convention center now, what would another Hammonds hotel add to the fabric of this part of downtown except hotel room count?

[MichaelC]

I know that TDA or some other gov't body owns the Parking Garage at 4th and Boulder.  They have "American Parking" operate the garage.  I've been kind of wondering about that.  Does TDA own all surface parking lots in the IDL?  Is TDA renting these things out, or are they privately owned?  The reason why I'm asking, is that the block is a bit more than 75% surface parking.

I don't know if I have problem with public money being spent or not.  If the Towerview can be purchased, and the land used for development, it would likely accelerate the process of development.  Looking at Tulsa, one the biggest problems I've had with the city is that it doesn't move fast enough.  

My understanding on the Mayo, is that the owners have balked on some public funds or restoration funds in the past.  Maybe thats wrong, maybe its just a rumor I picked up somewhere.  But if the Mayo is interested, I wouldn't mind public funds re-developing that building.

[MichaelC]

Nevermind on the TDA.  The article does mention that TDA owns some of the surface lots on that block.

Although, I think I'd rather see the bunker like BOK Drive-Thru be re-developed.  If Towerview could be re-developed, and the surface parking turned into retail, that might be a better setup.

Currently, the Vision 2025 Arena Cam shows a pretty good picture of what the backside of this block looks like.  It cuts off part of the South side of the block, but thats all surface parking.

http://www.vision2025.info/camera.php?camera=arenacamera

[pmcalk]

It wasn't clear to me if the current owner of the Towerview is the same one that let it fall apart.  Still, he seems to be doing work on it--the place appears to be gutted.

If the owner's of Mayo don't want any public funds, and believe they can do the work on their own, then I would say more power to them.  Perhaps they don't want any strings attached.  

Still, even if they don't want the money, do we really want to give the city money so it can purchase property to turn around and sell to a hotel chain that would compete with the Mayo?  Is that money wisely spent?  After all, a hotel is not like an art museum, which serves the public but ussually does not make a profit.  Hotels will enter any market that will provide them with a profit.  The Doubletree has about 450 rooms.  The Crowne Plaza (sorry, not the Adam's Mark anymore) has at least that many.  I would imagine once complete the Mayo will have several hundred rooms.  That's before you even get to the Ambassador.  If the arena pulls in such numbers that those hotels will be booked, I have no doubt that Marriott, Hilton, whatever, will find some land to build a hotel.

I would rather see the money go to something that will provide tourists with something to do once they get to Tulsa--develop the river, help some small, locally owned business to build downtown, etc....

[MichaelC]

I could be wrong about the Mayo.  That may have been under specific circumstances (like historic preservation funds), or maybe its just a rumor.  I'm sure somebody on here knows.

This TDA ownership issue, makes me believe that this part of the block would be granted or sold inexpensively for development.  If TDA owned the rest of the block, its an easy transition.  I'd kind of like to see the city choose the bank, but that entire block is being currently used for a bank.  The TDA doesn't own a significant portion of it, and it probably would be much more expensive.

The Crowne Plaza mostly services downtown business folk and its own convention business, proms, etc.  The Mayo is far from being ready for use as a hotel.  The Ambassador is mostly business folk.  However, I think the Doubletree should be a bit concerned.

If you look at a aerial photo of the area (like Google Earth), the Arena is suppose to use both the Convention Center parking and the new City garage at 2nd and Cheyenne.  From the City garage, pedestrians will have to walk one block directly past the block with Towerview, and the block with BOK bank.  If this hotel has integrated street level retail, this could be a location that helps increase sales taxes downtown.  So from a "grand scheme" downtown development angle, I'm not sure they are wrong.

I'm still kind of mixed about the idea.  There might be better options, I like the idea of funding Mayo if that is possible.  It would be very nice to see the bank go, but I'd also be happy seeing part of the surface parking being dried up.

[redpath]

Good point, swake. Ask St. Louis about their taxpayer-funded hotel.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

I could be wrong about the Mayo.  That may have been under specific circumstances (like historic preservation funds), or maybe its just a rumor.  I'm sure somebody on here knows.

This TDA ownership issue, makes me believe that this part of the block would be granted or sold inexpensively for development.  If TDA owned the rest of the block, its an easy transition.  I'd kind of like to see the city choose the bank, but that entire block is being currently used for a bank.  The TDA doesn't own a significant portion of it, and it probably would be much more expensive.

The Crowne Plaza mostly services downtown business folk and its own convention business, proms, etc.  The Mayo is far from being ready for use as a hotel.  The Ambassador is mostly business folk.  However, I think the Doubletree should be a bit concerned.

If you look at a aerial photo of the area (like Google Earth), the Arena is suppose to use both the Convention Center parking and the new City garage at 2nd and Cheyenne.  From the City garage, pedestrians will have to walk one block directly past the block with Towerview, and the block with BOK bank.  If this hotel has integrated street level retail, this could be a location that helps increase sales taxes downtown.  So from a "grand scheme" downtown development angle, I'm not sure they are wrong.

I'm still kind of mixed about the idea.  There might be better options, I like the idea of funding Mayo if that is possible.  It would be very nice to see the bank go, but I'd also be happy seeing part of the surface parking being dried up.

As I said before, the location is good for a hotel.  But again, if it is a good location, why can't this be done privately?  If the desire of a private company to build a hotel will be thwarted simply because they have to go to two people to purchase the property, or because the land is not dirt cheap, then I would be concerned as to how committed they really are to building the hotel, or how successful that hotel will be.

And I hate to see the destruction of an old building simply to build a run-of-the-mill hotel that may not be successful.  Especially with my tax dollars.

As for the Mayo not yet being ready, neither is the Arena.  I would say we have a 50-50 shot as to which is ready first.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

As I said before, the location is good for a hotel.  But again, if it is a good location, why can't this be done privately?  If the desire of a private company to build a hotel will be thwarted simply because they have to go to two people to purchase the property, or because the land is not dirt cheap, then I would be concerned as to how committed they really are to building the hotel, or how successful that hotel will be.

And I hate to see the destruction of an old building simply to build a run-of-the-mill hotel that may not be successful.  Especially with my tax dollars.

As for the Mayo not yet being ready, neither is the Arena.  I would say we have a 50-50 shot as to which is ready first.

I'd take that bet.

And as I said before, I'm somewhat mixed about the idea.  While I mostly agree with you so far, I'm not going to ignore all the angles on this and go "PETA" overboard.  Not yet.

I'd like to get more info before I commit to a general strike, sit-in, or midnight toilet paper party.  But I'm not ruling any of those out.

What this discussion boils down to IMO, is "would we be having this discussion if we were talking about a 20 story residential tower on top of a 5 story garage with street level commercial?"  IMO the answer is "no."

[swake]

How about this then, why does a hotel need an entire block?

TDA owns the entire western half of the block and a portion of the other half. Look at Google Earth and it seems that both the DoubleTree and Crown Plaza sit on about a half a city block, why not configure the parking to be underneath any hotel and leave the Towerview out of it?

The article says the owner is converting the Towerview to 16 to 20 lofts now, sales to begin in February with prices starting at about $200,000. Isn't that good all on it's own?

On a side note, the article also says that the old hotel that houses The Coney Islander is about to be sold and will ALSO be converted to "retro" apartments. The owner is the guy that has redone a couple of buildings in the BOk Center area recently and is looking to build a condo tower on top of one of his buildings.

The good news seems to be there are a ton of housing projects downtown now, and a lot of the them have nothing to do with the 2025 housing money.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by swake

On a side note, the article also says that the old hotel that houses The Coney Islander is about to be sold and will ALSO be converted to "retro" apartments. The owner is the guy that has redone a couple of buildings in the BOk Center area recently and is looking to build a condo tower on top of one of his buildings.

The good news seems to be there are a ton of housing projects downtown now, and a lot of the them have nothing to do with the 2025 housing money.

About time something happened with that eyesore!  

Count me as one who is opposed to the city buying the Towerview....let it be a private deal.

[MichaelC]

If it can be confirmed that Towerview is actually converting those units, it will probably then be "PETA-nutty" time IMO.  This isn't the only block that a hotel could go on.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by swake

On a side note, the article also says that the old hotel that houses The Coney Islander is about to be sold and will ALSO be converted to "retro" apartments. The owner is the guy that has redone a couple of buildings in the BOk Center area recently and is looking to build a condo tower on top of one of his buildings.

The good news seems to be there are a ton of housing projects downtown now, and a lot of the them have nothing to do with the 2025 housing money.

Yeah, I agree that is great news--that building is sooo ugly.  Just hope nothing happens to the Coney Islander.

[DM]

Does anyone have a photo of the apts? I think there is plenty of open space DT for hotels and other new construction. But if its an old building that is in need of some serious repair, then I would have no problem with tearing it down for a hotel. Just as long as it is not torn down for another surface parking lot.