Towerview Apartments

[DM]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by DM

Not creating more hotels. Just showing the demand for more hotels to investors. I have seen in other towns where older hotels dont get renovated until other hotels are built and more of a demand exists.

I think I see what you're getting at.  Once some level of "critical mass" is achieved, renovating older hotels makes much more sense to developers.  On the other hand, if the owners of the Mayo are interested, I have absolutely no problem with the City helping them along.

If I get a chance, I'll try to take some photos today or tomorrow.

Yea. What he said. Its Friday before a three day weekend so my brain has already shut down. lol!

I wouldnt have any problems with the city offering tax incentives to the Mayo or something like that to get the renovations done.

[MichaelC]

Just ignoring the guys motives, what is the plan?  Is it to write everyone, and oppose such a purchase?  Is it to oppose the 3rd Penny outright?  Is there a counter-proposal being developed?  Is the building historically significant to the point it can be preserved?  Are we protesting?  Are we complaining and shaking fists?  Are we talking injunctions?  

The building is interesting.  It doesn't have to be demolished.  But the case needs to be "shored up", and we need a plan.

[carltonplace]

I think the TowerView building is worth rehabilitating. Its attractive enough, should have some historical value and looks better there than a modern hotel would. I'l like to see more buildings of its ilk erected as condos and ground floor retail/service.

[MichaelC]

Here is a thread of Towerview Photos.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2782

Didn't want to clog up this thread.

I want to agree with you carltonplace.

[pmcalk]

According to the front door sign, it was built in 1922.  Pretty old for Tulsa.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

According to the front door sign, it was built in 1922.  Pretty old for Tulsa.

Yeah it is.  It is old enough to raise heck.

I've got some other photos to download, probably get to it tonight.

Towerview Photos

[jdb]

Are we still hosting that Historical summit thing next year, or the year after?

Beats me how that honor was bestowed upon us in the first place - unless it's a tactic by a concerned commission to shame us into easing up on the bull-dozers.

Sheepish grins abound.

But really, it's pretty simple: we continue to elect small minds, that continue to plod along the bovinian path, and thus we continue to suffer one blunder after another.

It's our continued legacy.

Of interest to me, after the razed rubble is cleared and the fight is over, is following the money.

Earlier, someone posted "area's of developement" but actually there is just one area on site, and could be the details of that lone area is what caused our mayor to pound a fist on the table (which aledgedly prompted a forehead vein to make a sudden appearence) and with audiable clarity pronounce that site as the only site in town.  

I wasn't there, and thus I don't know if this "story" isn't just some horrible, unforgivable lie (gasp!), but seems an awefully large elephant to hide if it is true.

"Usually takes a number of years for the truth of anything hinkey to find the light of day" - Rico

One would have to be nuts or a noble sucker for lost causes to start a save the structure in this case... But!, to present this case along with a few other, choice and recent blunders - in some slide show type presentation at the Historical summit thing (unless those people came to their senses' and moved the event to Nowata): well, that might be the time and place to produce a few progressive thoughts to take root and yeild results in the future.

This noble sucker will not be joining any fight to save the place...but do think the property merits concideration - if not for any other reason then we can't stand to loose any more then we alreay have.

Comes down to slow minds looking for fast money.

There, there's my take on what someone else should do with their money while I stand back and judge them visiously from a distance.

jdb

[LisaPeace]

quote:Originally posted by jdb


But really, it's pretty simple: we continue to elect small minds, that continue to plod along the bovinian path, and thus we continue to suffer one blunder after another.


jdb

I have a new quote for the day!  (as though I have a quote of the day...the only one I know that has one (and I'm assuming here) would be RecycleMichael.

I'd like to just add this from my perspective.  The Tower View, in 1951, contained the first home of my parents when they started their marriage together.  They couldn't afford much, dad and mom just wanted to escape Salina, OK and move to the big city.  Mom would walk anywhere she wanted to go downtown...(gasp...shopping and entertainment downtown!) and when Dad would get off work, they would take the car up Reservoir Hill at night to look at all the Oil Baron's mansions and the city lights and dream of a time they could live somewhere so elegant.

Now, I will tell you this...my parents actually finding each other and deciding to get married, well, one would assume that pairing would only be thought up by a Japanese film producer trying to find the next Godzilla vs.  "  " movie...or perhaps Archie Bunker (if you left out all the "loveable aspects") gets married to Maude (if you left out the Kaftans).

Seriously....wow.  

By the time I came along, they were ready to kill each other any way they could (most likely using Charlie Rich and Freddie Fender albums in some way), so they divorced.

HOWEVER.  

The one hopeful and happy story I have about them....the one that revolves around the Towerview...well, that's just priceless to me. I think that's a big reason why I'm such an idealist about preserving our past.  

Have a happy new year, everybody!  Just watch out for the cow pies on the path,

Lisa

[pmcalk]

What a wonderful story, LisaPeace.  My parents started out very similarly--at an apartment near 15th & Utica.  Sadly, it is now a surface lot for Stillwater.

I believe there are two types of people in this world.  There are those who look at houses and structures only for their utility--they serve a purpose and that is all.  Then there are those of us who look at homes and buildings as part of our family.  We are the ones that insist on driving by our childhood home; we refuse to paint the door with the markings of family members at different heights of development.

I regret that I was not among those fighting to save the Skelly.  Perhaps you did not save the building, but it was a worthy endeavor.  Unfortunately, right now in Tulsa the owner of any property--no matter how significant--has the right to destroy it.

Which leads me to the difference in this case.  This building may not be as significant as the Skelly.  But it is not the owner that is wanting to tear it down--it is our elected officials, with our tax money.  I believe that poses a much different issue--one much more susciptible to public pressure.

For those who haven't figured it out, I am jumping on the

DO THE MAYO FIRST

bandwagon.

[carltonplace]

Well stated pmcalk; You hit the nail on the head. I do not want any of my money spent on tearing down a structure that I think should or could be rehabilitated. This old building has character, great downtown views, and fits exactly into the credo that TulsaNow espouses "a liveable walkable downtown".

I don't know if the owner is serious about turning it into lofts, but we should get behind that idea anyway. If any taxpayer money is to be spent it should not be toward the destruction of this building but toward its rise from the stain of its past (not the building's fault it was a slum).

As far as "Do the Mayo First"! Who wouldn't prefer to stay in a famous restored Mayo hotel over some collection of boxes put up by Hilton or Motel 8 or Rent A Room. I find it highly improbable that a new structure would carry any of the architectural aspects that make the Mayo or the Towerview unique. Just a thought; but wouldn't anything over 5 stories block the arena from view looking west?

I don't want to be against downtown development, but I really want us to take our time and do what is right for the area. When I look at the eyesore Cinema that OKC threw up in BrickTown it makes me want to wave my arms wildly, point my finger, jump up and down on my soapbox and scream "Never in Downtown Tulsa". I haven't seen any recently built hotels that made me think "Wow, that is one beautiful structure".

I'm aware that condos are not the same economic impact but the 10 or so units of people living in downtown and caring about their neighborhood is worth more than a hotel to me. I might change my tune once I see the proposed plans, but I doubt it.

[flyingcowz]

Agreed..

[pmcalk]

I have been thinking about this issue, probably way too much.  But for those who still are undecided, who are concerned about whether the Towerview is worth saving, I would like to make one more argument.  Think about how different scenarios might be played, the first being that the Mayor gets his way, and money is included in the third penny to buy the building:

1.  In the best case scenario, the city and the owner reach an agreement on price, the building is torn down, and the mayor finds a national chain to come build a hotel right next door to the Arena--maybe even a walkway directly connecting the two.  So a handful of times a year, when large convention come to Tulsa, the hotel will be booked.  People will go back and forth from the arena to the hotel with the least amount of exposure to Tulsa as possible.  No walking around downtown, most will sleep and eat at the hotel, and cross the street to go to the convention.  Meanwhile, most of the year, the hotel will be half empty, and at all times will draw customers away from other downtown hotels that are already half empty much of the time.  That's the best case--we could get a situation where the owner takes the city to court because they can't agree on a price, or, even worse, the city may fail to attract a national chain after the building is destroyed, and we will have yet another surface parking lot.

2.  On the other hand, if the city does not choose to purchase the property, that money could be used for a variety of other purposes.  And if there truly is a need for a large, national hotel, private companies can approach the owner on their own.  If the owner is really committed to building highend lofts, and does not want to sell, then the hotel will simply have to be built around the lofts.  We'll have both lofts and a hotel.  In the worst case, the owner may not develop the building, and simply let it remain a boarded up slum.  As the Arena is completed, the property around it will become more and more valuable.  Which means his property taxes will go up higher and higher.  Even a sleazy slumlord wants to make money--he won't sit on high valued property for long, without trying to make some money.

IMO, the best case would be for that block to be left for development of small scale retail, cafes, and even housing.  Just think, if people were staying at the Crowne Plaza or Mayo for a convention, then they walked the few blocks to the Arena, they could stop at restaurants and cafes along the way.  They could experience some of Tulsa instead just their hotel.  The Towerview actually reminds me a lot of the Pizzeria Uno building in Chicago--wouldn't it be a great place to reopen My Pie pizza?

[carltonplace]

Exactly!

I don't love this building, but I'm 100% in favor of its rehabilitation because:

1. I see potential.
2. Its the devil we know.

[USRufnex]

http://www.urbantulsa.com/article.asp?id=2695

quote:
The pay-by-the-week SRO sits annoyingly in the midst an almost perfect line that extends from the Williams Towers, where the Metro Chamber's offices are located and the Tulsa World's building, to the Tulsa Vision Builders' offices, where a partnership of two powerful local construction firms conducts the brainwork for the arena's construction and the planned site of the events center itself.

Kept trying to think of what the building reminded me of, then finally...

There was an SRO (sleeping room only) in Chicago that looked a lot like it (a little smaller).  The brick was almost exactly the same color-- plain and ugly.  It rented rooms by the week-- and a neon sign on the front read "transients welcome."   A guy I worked with from Australia was forced to live there a few weeks while working a job... inside was awful-- holes in the walls, obvious rodent infestation, etc, etc...

I walked by the place a year later and did a complete "double take."  After sandblasting and adding concrete trim and decorative facades the place changed completely to a reasonably priced boutique hotel:

http://www.hawthorneterrace.com/

If the Towerview was an SRO weekly hotel, why not sell it off to a Best Western, Red Roof or Motel 6, etc?... under the conditions of a "total gut rehab" and give people a more reasonably priced alternative to the big modern hotels in the area...

My 2-cents.

[MichaelC]

I added some pics that show some of this building's surroundings.

Towerview Photos