Towerview Apartments

[RecycleMichael]

Surely Bank of Oklahoma has redevelopment plans for that bank drive-thru. It is a prime lot and their name is going on the arena across the street.

I agree with you Joe that all the above would be the preferred option.

[carltonplace]

Well if we can come up with a concensus (I like what Joe has to say) I'm ready to draft my letter to the Mare.

[MichaelC]

I think we've had that consensus for a while.  Most of the items AJ put forward I agree with in general.

If someone is to create a general letter writing campaign to the Mayor, I'd be in on that.

I'm still highly skeptical in this case.  But I appreciate the fervor for preservation, I appreciate the discussion so far, and I don't mind going with the flow for a bit.

[AVERAGE JOE]

I'm going to shift gears a bit, just to put into perspective whether an entire square block is needed for a hotel.

The Bank of America Center on the NE corner of 6th & Boulder was the tallest building in Oklahoma when it opened in the early 60s.



The lower fifth the building -- the white "base" portion -- is a parking garage. The smoked glass upper floors are the offices. There is a bank lobby on the ground floor and the Summit Club on  the top floor. Lots going on there.

The entire building footprint is 1/4 of the block. It doesn't even encroach on the alley running north/south.

TDA owns about 2/3 of the square block where the Towerview is located, including the half-block deep by full-block long portion that fronts the arena site... but that's not enough land for a hotel? Please.

There's plenty of existing land just sitting there as surface parking for a hotel site.

[flyingcowz]

Great point, there is no need to tear it down..let's please fill in the surface parking first.

[MichaelC]

I agree that the hotel, and the Towerview, can be a lot of things.  I've already stated my concerns, I don't think they'll be addressed at this time.  

We're being awfully speculative right now, there is a lot of negative possibilities that are being ignored outright.  That is ok, we don't have to agree.  I agree that the building is old, and IMO qualifies for a bit of action.  Whether or not action is taken (beyond a letter), is going to be up to someone who isn't "on the fence."  

I'll go with you, to a degree, simply on the principle that "the building is old."  There are plenty of things that could change my mind one way or the other, they just haven't materialized yet.

[AVERAGE JOE]

I definitely understand your concerns, MC. Until proven otherwise, probably a good idea to be a bit skeptical of the Towerview owner's plans. He could be blowing hot air.

But... that doesn't mean the idea of converting the Towerview into housing isn't a good idea, and one the Mayor's office might want to sniff out. If a hotel and a renovated Towerview can be accommodated on the same square block, why not try to make it happen? Seems a better end result than a hotel alone.

The Mayo should be pretty much mandatory no matter what happens to the Towerview.

[pmcalk]

Does anyone know the owner's of the Mayo?  The last I heard was that they were trying to raise the money for the elevators.  How much do they need?  There is currently 3 million slated for downtown acquistion and for the Brady district.  I don't want to take away any from the Brady, but I wonder if enough is left to fix the Mayo hotel's elevators.

I am not saying that I am convinced that the owner wants to convert the building to lofts.  But I think that we could give him the benefit of the doubt, at least for a bit of time.  Its not like he has sat on this property for years--my understanding is that he bought it, within six months it was closed down, and it has only been a little over a year since that occurred.  It takes some time to develop plans.  And as far as he being an absentee landlord, so is Kanbar.  Its not always a bad thing.  

[MichaelC]

I don't know about all the intricacies of the purchase of Towerview.  But for the time being, I don't see any reason to jump to conclusions.  It could very well be that the owner has a plan.  And according to the World article, the owner was talking about pre-selling these lofts in February.


The 3rd Penny expires July 1, 2006.  Is the next 3rd penny vote going to be on the City Council ballot in April?

According to the Council website (if it is up to date) the City Council is still reviewing the 3rd Penny.  If you want to raise the Towerview issue, I'd start with the Council, and with the Mayor.  The 3rd Penny will be on a ballot before it expires July 1st.  Time is a factor.

"We don't have time to discuss this in committee."  - Han Solo

[MichaelC]

I didn't mean to stymie all discussion on this item, and invoke the sound of crickets.

If this item stays on the 3rd Penny to election, IMO, that would be a pretty good sign that it's a done deal.

[pmcalk]

I intend to voice my objection to the Council.  My understanding is that the Mayor wants the third penny voted on during the municiple election on April 4, so the Council will have to approve it well before that date to get it on the ballot.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

I'm going to shift gears a bit, just to put into perspective whether an entire square block is needed for a hotel.

The Bank of America Center on the NE corner of 6th & Boulder was the tallest building in Oklahoma when it opened in the early 60s.



The lower fifth the building -- the white "base" portion -- is a parking garage. The smoked glass upper floors are the offices. There is a bank lobby on the ground floor and the Summit Club on  the top floor. Lots going on there.

The entire building footprint is 1/4 of the block. It doesn't even encroach on the alley running north/south.

TDA owns about 2/3 of the square block where the Towerview is located, including the half-block deep by full-block long portion that fronts the arena site... but that's not enough land for a hotel? Please.

There's plenty of existing land just sitting there as surface parking for a hotel site.

Now that is my point, I have no idea and really don't care what the outcome will be for the towerview. I hope it can be rehabbed and reused, bt if not, I won't cry.

I just don't see the point to spend more money, the city already has plenty of land for any downtown hotel use.

If the city really wants to use the money on the Towerview, then do that, use the money to redo it! Or give it to the Mayo, whatever. I just see buying the towerview to tear it down and create a larger footprint hotel as counterproductive and wasteful.

I'm afraid of a large suburban style hotel if the entire block is available, something like Hammond's other hotel in town off of US169. Force any hotel developer to build up instead!

[Double A]

Why not lobby the Council and Mare to do the one year extension to finish the projects that were promised but fell short of funding in the current third penny and hold a vote on new projects projects before the year extension is set to expire? I think a little more time for review and consideration would be a good thing. Let the dust settle from all the election year posturing, and look at this package without the political blinders on. Besides we are going to basically have a new Council after April 4th(and hopefully a new mayor), why should they be saddled with administering a program that was decided by lame duck officials.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I agree:

DO THE MAYO FIRST!

[MichaelC]

Something was kind of bothering me about the assertion that this hotel could go on half a block.  It appears that some hotels are on half a block if you look at aerial photos, but that isn't the way I was remembering it.  So I went downtown this evening, to see what I could see.

The Mayo and Ambassador, those two hotels are obviously less than the size of a block.  

Crowne Plaza's with it's attached convention space, is probably slightly larger than a 0.5 blocks.  If you include the parking garage (that services Crowne Plaza) under that greenspace in front of Williams Tower, the Crowne Plaza is much larger than an entire block.  It's close to 1.5 blocks.  

If you include Doubletree's attached convention space, it's very close to a block in size.  About 1.5 if you include the parking garage.

Doubletree and Crowne Plaza would both fit on half of a block, if they didn't have convention space and parking garages.

I'm sure it is possible, I'm sure it has been done elsewhere on half a block.  But it doesn't appear that half of a block would support a typical modern downtown hotel development.  For a hotel, IMO it makes sense to have your convention space on or near street level.  And obviously a hotel would need it's own parking garage in that location.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

Something was kind of bothering me about the assertion that this hotel could go on half a block.  It appears that some hotels are on half a block if you look at aerial photos, but that isn't the way I was remembering it.  So I went downtown this evening, to see what I could see.

The Mayo and Ambassador, those two hotels are obviously less than the size of a block.  

Crowne Plaza's with it's attached convention space, is probably slightly larger than a 0.5 blocks.  If you include the parking garage (that services Crowne Plaza) under that greenspace in front of Williams Tower, the Crowne Plaza is much larger than an entire block.  It's close to 1.5 blocks.  

If you include Doubletree's attached convention space, it's very close to a block in size.  About 1.5 if you include the parking garage.

Doubletree and Crowne Plaza would both fit on half of a block, if they didn't have convention space and parking garages.

I'm sure it is possible, I'm sure it has been done elsewhere on half a block.  But it doesn't appear that half of a block would support a typical modern downtown hotel development.  For a hotel, IMO it makes sense to have your convention space on or near street level.  And obviously a hotel would need it's own parking garage in that location.

Wouldn't a hotel with its own convention space be counter-productive to the convention space Tulsa is already paying for and building?

Different point, but Tulsa voters already kind of already drew a line for west downtown development when we approved the arena. Why do we feel the need to sweeten the deal to entice a hotel to come to town? Am I wrong, or shouldn't we stand back and say: "Look what we're building, don't you want to be a part of it, bring money"?