Beautiful Parking Garages? C'est Possible!

[Breadburner]

30,000 dollars a space......

[Weatherdemon]

Personally, I think Tulsa people don't like to walk unless they are under 30.

It's amazing to me that the number one complaint about TU athletics isn't product on the field or court, it's not ticket prices (which are cheaper than 90% of all D1 schools), it's not the price of concessions or the availability of them, it's that people can't park right next to the stadium. They think that parking 3 blocksaway  is insane, 5 blocks away is unheard of. The fact they have to walk an extra 100 feet to get to concessions at a football game with no line to get away from the one that is 5 people deep at every window is an insane inconvenience.

There has been a ton of requests for a large parking garage on campus with the people asking for them not even considering the traffic nightmare of getting 1,000 or more vehicles out of the garage and onto Harvard after a game. IMO, if a 1000-1100 car garage was built people would complain about lighting, security, people tailgating on the roof, and having to wait in line 20 minutes to leave after the game then fight traffic for another 10 to the highway. If people just walked 5 blocks, it would take 5 minutes more than the walk to the garage and they would be on the highway in 5 more minutes.

As for downtown, you're right though. If there can be enough shops, resturants, and bars in conjunction with a good population of younger professionals living downtown, people wouldn't think of the walk as a "walk" but as an enjoyable stroll.

Looking out the 33rd floor window the other day when I took that pic I thought, "Wow. We're just a year or so away from increasing the number of people in the Brady District at ANY given hour to 500-1500. That many extra people in that small area will do wonders for the foot traffic down there. Like you said, walking in Wal Mart can be scary if it were just you and the strange Wal Mart people. When you're in there with hundreds of somewhat normal people, the scaries aren't as scary.

Once the bridge is done I do really think that the Brady will profit immensley from it after shows at the BOk Arena.
I also think a trolley back and forth from OneOk field to Brady would be a great idea. People could leave the game if it was a blow out or they were just bored, take a 3 minute ride to Brady and check out the museum and other attractions and take a 3 minute trolley back to the game where they could catch the 8th and 9th innings or simply walk back to their car. Before too long a lot of these people might take the short walk over and enjoy the parks and other Brady offerings.

Anyway... just my .02 in reply to yours ;o)

[custosnox]

Personally, I think Tulsa people don't like to walk unless they are under 30.

I'm passed that 30 year mark, but I prefer to walk when in a pedestrian friendly place.  Problem is, not a whole lot of that around here.

[AquaMan]

So, basically you think over 30's Tulsan's are lazy whiners? Could be. You could also add impatient and fickle.

At games in Norman I have never had to walk less than 5 blocks to the stadium. Usually we walk over past the Student Union to Campus Corner and loiter, then past the band having a pep rally and finally across the oval to the stadium where people are camping and cooking. Its a real experience. Average age of those visitors seems to be well in excess of 30. Probably the same at Stillwater.

Tulsa? Not so much. Walking along the neighborhood streets around TU is cramped, feels dangerous and uncomfortable and there is no real Campus Corner experience. Closing 11th street is not really the same.

Some notes about downtown and its walkability.
    -We went downtown just before Christmas one Saturday hoping to enjoy the temporary shops set up that I read about here. They were closed. All of them. I forced my better half to walk with me and window shop but that seemed pointless after a bit as we needed gifts. So, we got back in the car and drove over to Blue Dome to check out some real live open for business shops. Notably Dwelling Spaces. I love that place. Stuff was happening over there. A photo shoot, people shopping and people eating breakfast. Still pretty slow and mostly under 30. They were walking. A passing truck full of rednecks sped by and honked at us as we crossed Elgin on foot. Yeah, that's the real Tulsa.

    -My wife never likes to eat or drink in a nearly empty restaurant/bar. Part of the fun for her is the excitement of a crowd. It also validates the place as worthy of visiting. Next comes service, then food quality, then accessibility.

   -A trolley is an excellent idea in concept. Its operating costs are high though and its success difficult to document. It would need to be underwritten by some large sponsors or government subsidy both of which are difficult to find right now. I too believe that within a year the traffic problems created by the energetic development and marketing of the area will necessitate some way to move people around...or they won't come back. Never a second chance for a good first impression ya' know.

    -When I visited Bricktown, there were mobs of people walking all around the general area. Lots of paths. Trolleys weren't very visible but were available. It might be that the area was planned with walkability in mind. The paths lead to restaurants, displays, bars, movie theater etc. And, the average appearance and girth of the walkers implied well over 30.

[Red Arrow]

   -A trolley is an excellent idea in concept. Its operating costs are high though and its success difficult to document.

The upfront cost of a trolley is certainly high with the rail and overhead electric service and initial vehicle cost.   From what I've read, the overall cost is comparable or less than rubber tire vehicles when costs are adjusted to include the life of the equipment.

[Red Arrow]

Personally, I think Tulsa people don't like to walk unless they are under 30.

30 was a long time ago.  Unless the weather is horrible, I walk each weekday about 2 miles just to get out of the office for a while and get some exercise.  I park my car away from the crowds near the door at our suburban shopping places.  It helps reduce door dents and keeps the people working at New Balance shoes with a customer.

But then, I'm technically not "Tulsa" since I live in the north edge of Bixby but my workplace is in the Tulsa city limits.

Wow! I coulda had a V8.

[AquaMan]

Downtown is great. I love it. IMO, it still suffers from fragmentation and lack of a central identifying attraction. You can't say the Arena is it. You can't say the ballpark is it. Both are nice but pretty much expected these days. It certainly isn't an old Blue Domed gas station from the thirties. It isn't the growing number of creative alternate uses of warehouses and structures from early day Tulsa. It isn't the accumulation of artists or yearly art festivals. All of these are the seeds planted for a downtown population that isn't there yet. We went at it backwards and the housing is now in process. Probably, like Artist implies, because the money and mentality for development is suburban oriented. Can't blame them for doing what they know how to do.

So, a few years from now it will be a convenient place to live and work. Development downtown has been like the three characters of Wizard of Oz each needing something to be complete. We found the brains. We found the courage. Now, if we want it to be attractive to people outside of the nearby downtown area, we need a heart.

Then, keep this in mind. Of the half million or so souls that reside here, how many are possible customers of downtown goods and services? Has anyone assembled a true profile of who that person is? The demographic attracted to the inner city is much smaller than most would assume I wager. Anyway, why would they visit and spend money, on a continuing basis, downtown when most every need they have can be met within their own residential area?

In short, its time to focus on a central attraction or feature that differentiates our downtown from its suburbs or other downtowns.

[AquaMan]

The upfront cost of a trolley is certainly high with the rail and overhead electric service and initial vehicle cost.   From what I've read, the overall cost is comparable or less than rubber tire vehicles when costs are adjusted to include the life of the equipment.

I certainly agree. The capital costs are high for a railed trolley but offset by the durability and low operating costs. However, it would have to be an authority that underwrites the cost and therefore controversial. Justifying its success would always be difficult as it is in the same category as other subsidized infrastructure. Not profitable as an entity but necessary to ensure profitability of the area served.

The flexibility of a rubber wheeled trolley can't be ignored. It can change routes as needed and can be privately operated.

[Red Arrow]

The flexibility of a rubber wheeled trolley bus can't be ignored. It can change routes as needed and can be privately operated.

That same flexibility is also one of its detractions.  With the stroke of a pen, a good development site can be changed to just another inaccessible location.  Potential riders know pretty much where a rail vehicle is going.  Not so much with a bus. 

[AquaMan]

With that in mind the time to build a rail trolley was probably two years ago in conjunction with a good development plan. Since we didn't do that, we still have to consider rubber wheeled people mover vehicles (eliminate the word trolley) as another possible solution. Especially given the easier start up costs of doing so. The vehicle should be designed to reflect a theme that fits into the area's attractions. I wouldn't rule out that a real trolley couldn't be feasible in another area (Pearl) or at another time.
Remember, imo, the fragmentation (part of it physical) of the area is a hindrance to the exploitation of its uniqueness. You have to be able to cross over the railroad tracks.

Unlike a MTTA vehicle their only purpose would be to specific destinations within the entertainment/deco district and its parking areas.

[Red Arrow]

With that in mind the time to build a rail trolley was probably two years ago in conjunction with a good development plan. Since we didn't do that, we still have to consider rubber wheeled people mover vehicles (eliminate the word trolley) as another possible solution. Especially given the easier start up costs of doing so. The vehicle should be designed to reflect a theme that fits into the area's attractions. I wouldn't rule out that a real trolley couldn't be feasible in another area (Pearl) or at another time.
Remember, imo, the fragmentation (part of it physical) of the area is a hindrance to the exploitation of its uniqueness. You have to be able to cross over the railroad tracks.

Unlike a MTTA vehicle their only purpose would be to specific destinations within the entertainment/deco district and its parking areas.

Bus.  Say the word after me. Bus.  It's not a 4 letter or cuss word.

Rail is a part of the Fast Forward transit plan for Tulsa.  http://www.fastforwardplan.org/Portals/0/Documents/102011RTSP/Handout_10-13-2011.pdf
It won't be here for a while though.  A bus circulator system would certainly have a lower startup cost than fixed rail, could occur almost overnight  and would be better than no system.  However, the ridership of a bus system may not be indicative of what the ridership of fixed rail transportation would be.  The failure of a bus system is not the guarantee one way or the other of the failure of a fixed rail system.

I don't see crossing the railroad tracks to be much, if any, more of a technical problem for a fixed rail trolley than a bus.  A bus can fail to climb or stop on a snowy or icy grade of a crossing bridge just as easily as rail.  At grade crossings would be similar.

Whatever circulator system would be developed would need something like an all-day or multiple ride pass to attract riders.  If you try to hit up riders with a (pick a cost) $1 ticket every time they board the vehicle, they will want to drive their car to the nearest parking lot. 

[AquaMan]

Bus.  Say the word after me. Bus.  It's not a 4 letter or cuss word.

Rail is a part of the Fast Forward transit plan for Tulsa.  http://www.fastforwardplan.org/Portals/0/Documents/102011RTSP/Handout_10-13-2011.pdf
It won't be here for a while though.  A bus circulator system would certainly have a lower startup cost than fixed rail, could occur almost overnight  and would be better than no system.  However, the ridership of a bus system may not be indicative of what the ridership of fixed rail transportation would be.  The failure of a bus system is not the guarantee one way or the other of the failure of a fixed rail system.

I don't see crossing the railroad tracks to be much, if any, more of a technical problem for a fixed rail trolley than a bus.  A bus can fail to climb or stop on a snowy or icy grade of a crossing bridge just as easily as rail.  At grade crossings would be similar.

Whatever circulator system would be developed would need something like an all-day or multiple ride pass to attract riders.  If you try to hit up riders with a (pick a cost) $1 ticket every time they board the vehicle, they will want to drive their car to the nearest parking lot. 

Such an engineer. Bus might as well be a four letter word. The image of buses is a four letter word...fail. Market it as a "people mover" or a trolley and its something with more charisma. Something you can market. Inferior to railed trolleys imo but cheaper to put in place. I'm glad there are plans for one. I support the concept, but I am dubious of it happening until the character of the city changes.

Unfortunately you won't find much widespread support for an infrastructure for railed anything in Tulsa. Vote no on new taxes will always win. And it will take taxes in one form or another to accomplish.

How do you get railed trolleys across existing heavy rail lines?

[Red Arrow]

Such an engineer.

I am what I am.

Bus might as well be a four letter word. The image of buses is a four letter word...fail. Market it as a "people mover" or a trolley and its something with more charisma.

I'd like to market my 1998 Buick as a 2012 Corvette.  We've been through whether words have a meaning or not so I'll stop here for now on that.

Unfortunately you won't find much widespread support for an infrastructure for railed anything in Tulsa. Vote no on new taxes will always win. And it will take taxes in one form or another to accomplish.

I cannot disagree with that except there could be more support for rail with the proper promotion.  (Just don't market it as a bus.  )

How do you get railed trolleys across existing heavy rail lines?

Rail crossing rail is not a technical problem.  I believe the trolley poles or pantographs will go high enough for the electric wires to clear existing heavy rail clearance requirements.  There are probably a gazillion regulations that would make it difficult.  You cannot run light rail on the same rails as heavy rails in the US but I don't know one way or the other about crossings.   There is an excellent example of heavy rail crossing heavy rail at Wagoner where the Union Pacific Steam Locomotives stop.  Unfortunately, the Google Maps satellite view is not detailed enough to see the frogs in the rail. You can't even see the rail details.

[takemebacktotulsa]

the only reason people don't walk all over downtown tulsa is because they don't HAVE to.

i currently live in new york, and the only reason i walk is because i have to. don't get me wrong, i appreciate, and use, the subway and busses, but i would much rather use a car.

as for trolleys in dowtown tulsa: i don't think tulsa will ever have the density that would necessitate a trolley on tracks downtown. it's much too expensive, and restrictive. once the tracks are down, they are down. bus "trolleys" would be a much more cost effective and flexible solution.

[AquaMan]

1998 Buick for sale. High miles. Leather upholstery. One owner.

Late nineties full size American luxury sedan. Built to run a quarter million miles. Sumptous interior. For sale to satisfy estate.

Which one do you call on?