Beautiful Parking Garages? C'est Possible!

[Red Arrow]

1998 Buick for sale. High miles. Leather upholstery. One owner.

Late nineties full size American luxury sedan. Built to run a quarter million miles. Sumptous interior. For sale to satisfy estate.

Which one do you call on?

Neither one sounds like a Corvette to me.

[Red Arrow]

as for trolleys in dowtown tulsa: i don't think tulsa will ever have the density that would necessitate a trolley on tracks downtown. it's much too expensive, and restrictive. once the tracks are down, they are down. bus "trolleys" would be a much more cost effective and flexible solution.

Trolley buses still require overhead wires, two rather than one.  They do offer the advantage of not having an internal combustion engine, thereby transferring the pollution problem to the electric plant.  There are some trolley buses that have some on-board batteries to allow them to run short distances where overhead wires are not practical. 

[takemebacktotulsa]

do trolleys on tracks have the same overhead wires? i'm pretty sure they do. if not, the run on a combustion engine, right? i mean, how else would it work? they wouldn't have live tracks in the middle of the street.

when i said trolley busses, meant actual busses that look like trolleys. like the one that used to run from brookside to cherry street to downtown, which i thought was great!

[Red Arrow]

How do you get railed trolleys across existing heavy rail lines?

I remembered an example of trolley crossing trolley.  Just this side of the pole in the middle of the picture is the example.  The rest appear to be turnouts (switches).
http://g.co/maps/9gdtd

[Red Arrow]

do trolleys on tracks have the same overhead wires? i'm pretty sure they do. if not, the run on a combustion engine, right? i mean, how else would it work? they wouldn't have live tracks in the middle of the street.

when i said trolley busses, meant actual busses that look like trolleys. like the one that used to run from brookside to cherry street to downtown, which i thought was great!

Trolleys on tracks have one overhead wire. They complete the circuit through the wheels to the rail.  The rails are at ground potential so you can touch them if you want without even a tingle.  Since trolley buses cannot complete the electric path through their tires to the road, they need two overhead wires.  I believe I have seen an example of trolley buses using two overhead wires and rail trolleys using the "hot" wire of the two and completing the path through the wheels to the rails as usual.  I don't remember where that was.

I actually knew what you meant by "trolley bus".  They are not a bad vehicle but they are no more a trolley than my Buick is a Corvette or a pick-up truck or an 18 wheeler.  I also think that running them from Brookside to Cherry St to downtown was a good idea since we don't have other regularly scheduled transit.  I don't believe it is still running.

Edit:
This pretty much describes the differences:
http://sacramentohistory.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-isand-isnta-trolley.html

[takemebacktotulsa]

oh i see what you mean...

my opinion is that we can accomplish everything a trolly can with the infrastructure that we have already. real trolleys may seem nicer, but they do the same things as busses. but with less flexibility and more expenses.

the trolleys in u.s. cities that have them are intended for tourists mainly (mepmhis and san franciso are the only two that i can think of, really).

[Red Arrow]

oh i see what you mean...

my opinion is that we can accomplish everything a trolly can with the infrastructure that we have already. real trolleys may seem nicer, but they do the same things as busses. but with less flexibility and more expenses.

the trolleys in u.s. cities that have them are intended for tourists mainly (mepmhis and san franciso are the only two that i can think of, really).

Here are a few cities:
http://www.lightrailnow.org/success1.htm
Some are for tourists but many are actually used by the locals.

This is a lot of info about the Philadelphia, PA system history.  There are still some trolleys running as regular transportation.
http://www.phillytrolley.org/
If you click on the "trackless trolleys" you will see what I mean about trolley buses.
I grew up next to the Springfield Rd stop of the Septa 101 route.
http://www.septa.org/maps/trolley/suburban.html
http://g.co/maps/c2zc2


If you are really interested, those sites will keep you occupied for hours.

[takemebacktotulsa]

Here are a few cities:
http://www.lightrailnow.org/success1.htm
Some are for tourists but many are actually used by the locals.

out of all those cities, the only one that is fair to compare to tulsa is little rock, and they have a "heritage trolley" which i think is code for "novelty trolley".

has anyone ever ridden the trolley in little rock? i mean, i could be totally wrong, and it could be used by people to commute to and from work.

ps. i hope i did the quote thing right.

[takemebacktotulsa]

don't get me wrong. i wish our trolley system had never been bought out by GM and dismantled. i wish we still had the infrastructure in place. that would make things totally different.

i suspect that little rock escaped our trolley fate.

[Red Arrow]

out of all those cities, the only one that is fair to compare to tulsa is little rock, and they have a "heritage trolley" which i think is code for "novelty trolley".
has anyone ever ridden the trolley in little rock? i mean, i could be totally wrong, and it could be used by people to commute to and from work.

Heritage trolley is the style of the vehicle.  Old style rather than new style but may be new manufacture.  Little Rock's were made/refurbed by Gomaco. http://www.gomacotrolley.com/index.html   I was in Little Rock a few years ago but the folks I was with were more interested in seeing the Clinton Library than spending a few minutes riding the trolley.  The system is mostly a downtown circulator but also crosses the river to North Little Rock.  I don't know if there are any significant numbers of commuters.  The recent system was built from scratch as I understand.

http://www.cat.org/rrail/streetcar.html

[TheArtist]

The other alternative I see to real trolleys and "trolley busses", is the small bus.  When I was in NYC last we never rode a bus that was as huge as Tulsa's giant, lumbering behemoths. The busses we rode in were smaller and came every few minutes.   If we had some sharp looking, smaller busses that only served downtown and surrounding areas like Brookside and Cherry Street, or even just a corridor where we eventually may want trolleys, and they were on a very timely basis... then I think you would have something.  The busses must look distinctive from the regular city busses so that people will immediately know these are different.  They must look sharp.  The stops must have the route for each bus on a map at the stop so that people will know where the bus goes and the times for operation and the arrival time for the next bus.  Having nice stops with that signage and electronic arrival times, etc. will show that you are making an investment in the service and thus give a little confidence to potential new developers that this route will be there for them.

[Red Arrow]

The other alternative I see to real trolleys and "trolley busses", is the small bus.  When I was in NYC last we never rode a bus that was as huge as Tulsa's giant, lumbering behemoths. The busses we rode in were smaller and came every few minutes.   If we had some sharp looking, smaller busses that only served downtown and surrounding areas like Brookside and Cherry Street, or even just a corridor where we eventually may want trolleys, and they were on a very timely basis... then I think you would have something.  The busses must look distinctive from the regular city busses so that people will immediately know these are different.  They must look sharp.  The stops must have the route for each bus on a map at the stop so that people will know where the bus goes and the times for operation and the arrival time for the next bus.  Having nice stops with that signage and electronic arrival times, etc. will show that you are making an investment in the service and thus give a little confidence to potential new developers that this route will be there for them.

What you describe reminds me somewhat of the shuttle buses used by rental car companies at large airports.  Very effective and easy to use.

I believe you hit the really important parts. Knowing the route quickly and easily is a must.  Knowing the locations of the stops along the route must be just as easy to determine.  (Something I have been unable to do on the MTTA web site.)  Buses (or whatever) must arrive frequently enough to make people willing to wait for the next one.  Electronic ETA of the next vehicle at each stop is a plus.  At that point, you don't really need a schedule beyond knowing when the transit day begins and ends and the frequency of service at a particular time of day.

[takemebacktotulsa]

When I was in NYC last we never rode a bus that was as huge as Tulsa's giant, lumbering behemoths. The busses we rode in were smaller and came every few minutes.

it has been a couple of years since i rode a bus in tulsa, but i don't remember them being bigger than the ones in nyc. the ones in nyc are definitely sleeker. and at each stop here in nyc there is a schedule and a map of the route. that is something tulsa could definitely do to help things.

When I was in NYC last we never rode a bus that was as huge as Tulsa's giant, lumbering behemoths. The busses we rode in were smaller and came every few minutes.

they have started to do that in at a few bus stops in nyc. it's pretty great.

i would love to see a route that circulates in between downtown, the pearl, cherry street and brookside.

[rdj]

Marketing and perception are the issues with the bus in Tulsa.  Public transit buses in Tulsa are seen as a social service not a transit service.  We in Middle America love our cars and the independence they provide for us to go where we want, when we want and how fast we want.  The only public transit that will be utilized by those that can afford a car are circulator routes in urban areas that are marketed as a way to park and ride and enjoy the attractions of downtown, Brookside, Cherry St, etc.  For a long time I felt a connection between these areas was needed.  With the development in downtown a connector between the three primary urban districts is not needed.  All three areas have developed enough density and diversity of dining and entertainment they are now distinct destinations on their own without support of the others.  A rubber wheel "trolley" that travels back and forth on Brookside & Cherry St would be sufficient but most likely lightly used.  However, a similar fleet of vehicles that travels between the various districts downtown would be very useful and with the right stops and marketing utilized by a great number of residents and visitors alike.

What are everyone's thoughts on a circulator route that runs north on Elgin, west on Brady, south on Denver, east on 5th (requiring 5th street to be turned into two way between Denver & Main, which is a no brainer IMO) and back north on Elgin?

That's right at two miles.  I don't know how many vehicles you'd need to have stops at a 5-7 minute interval.  The only drawback I see is the front door of the PAC is no closer than two blocks to the route and the Tulsa Convention Center is a block away.  PAC has enough surface parking inside two blocks to not absolutely need a stop at the door.  The Convention Center could probably use a stop closer than a block for visitors.  However, that's a really easy route to remember and places a lot of emphasis on those streets for development.

Another option would be a route that runs south on Elgin, west on 5th St, north on Boulder (once the bridge is complete) and east on Brady back to Elgin.  Then a second route that runs east on 4th St, north on Frankfort, west on 3rd St, south on Frisco, back to 4th St. 

Thoughts on these routes?

[Red Arrow]

That's right at two miles.  I don't know how many vehicles you'd need to have stops at a 5-7 minute interval. ...  Thoughts on these routes?

With any single track or single direction loop, you will need to consider people wanting to go in the direction opposite the loop.  Double track would be the nicest and, of course, most expensive.  Having passing areas and good timing would allow traffic in opposite directions. 

I think I've seen numbers around 10 mph for on street trolleys' average speed. That converts to 6 min/mile so a 2 mile loop would need 2 trolleys.